OK I know I shouldn't be getting into bible arguments at bible study but I have a situation here so maybe I can get some input.

The bible study I go to is held in Kapiolani Park & is open to anyone passing by (primarily homeless peolpe) to participate. The gentleman who started it is Bob Erb (http://www.boberb.org/) , he started Waikiki Beach Outreach Ministry, through which x amount of thousand meals were fed to the homeless in the last 12 mos. Bob considers himself "under the covering" of another ministry run by a gentleman who is a Messianic Jew named Daniel.

I have been getting into it with Rabbi Daniel over & over again & I think at least a few issues are going on:

1) There is some kind of communication barrier due to our different teachers - when he asks a question he doesn't hear the answer in my reply & the same thing happens in reverse.

2) Possibly we both are a couple of "know it alls" - I at least know when I am disobeying God & admit it & know there is a possibility that I could be wrong with any interpretation or application of scripture that I prefer, however he would rather lie & deny he made even the slightest error.

3) I just have a problem with anyone who's behavior says "I am the fountain of all wisdom, so shut up & let me do all the talking" .

Rabbi Daniel is only there on wednesdays & I am having a feeling like I should just not attend on those days so as to avoid contention; but the only reason I get into it with him is because he tries to pass off some fable, human reasoning, conjecture or opinion off as if it was scripture & teach the scriptures by way of traditions & all the while having no scripture whatsoever to back up more than half of his points. I ask him "where is the scripture that says that?" He replies "I dont have one" or "look it up, do a search on the internet" or "it is a theme that is written throughout the scriptures" & every time I want to tell him something I just read the scripture or point out his own behavior (of claiming that human reasoning/wisdom is gospel) & he looses his mind. He says I am judging him & so I told him, "All I did was share the scripture, if you feel judged, it's the scripture judging you, not me" .

I have been told to take him to the side according to the one in Mt 18 or so & I prayed about it & it was revealed to me that this was the wrong venue for application of that scripture because of this reason:

- There are people who only sit at the table for 10 miniutes at a time, if the Rabbi says some nonesense & claims it is a scripture, if I don't say anything at that moment someone could leave with that erronious thought in their mind - I am not only speaking up for the Rabbi's benifit (he hates being corrected or interrupted while speaking, & will not even let you talk when he asks you a question {or when he said "you can share something now"} unless your answer is shorter than 2 sentences {he wont accept alternate correct answers either}; someone else talked to me & he scolded me for responding) but for the baby christians at the table & the unbelievers also.

I dont want to but I am getting the feeling that I should shake the dust off of my feet; what I need is encouragement, prayer & advice because I don't want to fight with him & I don't want to run away from him & I don't want to listen to him lie & call it the truth either.

Hi Slade! It may help if you post an example of what is being said.

I left out the specifics on purpose but if you want some let me see if I can remember...

1) Pastor Rabbi said "The motive for God creating the earth is for Him to express His love (to us).

I asked him, "That sounds all good & well but where is the scripture that says that?"

He said "I don't have one, it's a theme written throughout the scriptures."

I said "Can you write an essay with 100 scriptures in it that says what you said?"

He ignored me

I said "So what you are saying is an opinion, not gospel."

He lost his mind

2) Pastor Rabbi said that the explination for Jesus not knowing when he will return is due to the tradition of Jewish weddings is that the father of the bride is the judge when the son in law is finished building an addition to the main house for the daughter.

I said "if Jesus said that the word of God is made of none effect by the traditions, do you think that we are supposed to interpret scripture using traditions?

He lost his mind

The scripture tells me that spiritual things are spiritually dicerned - so if I want to understand a scripture it's best that I look at another scripture (or 10)

3) Pastor Rabbi said "You all know that scripture that says 'Spare the rod, spoil the child?' right?"

I let it go untill later when he called the New Living Translation a paraphrase

I told him that he was calling the word of God (albeit I don't like that version much either) the word of man & that the scripture he brought up earlier didn't exist (calling the word of man the word of God)

He lost his mind

The next week he denied that Bob wanted to read from a "translation" (I know for a fact that he gave me his "the living Bible" so he did not own a "paraphrase" ) & he admits that he was paraphrasing a scripture when he said "Spare the rod, spoil the child"

I asked him "What scripture were you paraphrasing?"

He responded "That scripture"

I forget all the rest of his teaching because like I said he wasn't teaching anything I could get ahold of because it was mostly human reasoning, conjecture, opinion, theory, & hypothesis. He can talk for an hour taking us from point "a" to point "z" with all the points "b" through "y" have nothing to do with what the scriptures say.

Slade,

It sounds to me that this Rabbi is steeped in Jewish thinking and study methods, which is foreign to most Christians. Some have traditional beliefs that have been passed down through the years, which they hold to as strongly as though they are Scripture. Some orthodox have been taught to follow the majority opinion of the rabbi’s regardless of what the Scripture says. That is unfortunate because truth is not communicated in that type of study. Yet, I don’t want to leave the impression there is nothing for us to learn from Jewish people. Quite the contrary, as they may have a wealth of knowledge that can be quite valuable to our understanding. In all study we have to be discerning.

Hopefully it is his desire to bring others into the knowledge of their Savior, too. I understand your concern that there needs to be foundational teaching from the Scripture to those who are so desperately in need of it. My advice would be that if you are to be a part of any discussion with him, to simply respond with scripture. If you try to reason or argue with him in front of others, you may be defeating your purpose, if you come across in an argumentative way. If he disagrees with scripture, then it is possible he will lose his audience, even if an uneducated one.

Your showing a demeanor of love and a knowledge of the Scripture, the Lord will receive the glory. Slade, I am also sending a private message.

Chelki

Hi Slade! Before I reply, I hope you know I love you and appreciate your faithful responses on this board.

With that said as a covering, I do not believe God is being glorified by the way you are interacting with this teacher. These examples are relatively minor points in the big scheme of God's plan of Salvation. It sounds like this teacher has a genuine desire to give glory to God and draw others to His side. If he is in error on some points I believe a better course of action would be to invest in forming a relationship where you would earn the right to be heard and to give loving instruction. The enemy wins if you are causing a teacher to lose his mind in front of his students.

I pray that you receive this in the loving manner it is intended.

Thanks 4 the input guys (I appreciate being appreciated), I don't think I have the paitence to wait the amount of years it will take to earn his respect (Bob has known him for years & still hasn't graduated from "student" to "friend" or "peer" ) ; 1st of all I am not older than him so the likelihood of that day ever arriving is slim to none; 2nd of all I could never go through the training it would take for me to become a messianic rabbi if it involved learning all these ways to interpret scripture by way of tradition. I survived all these years as a bible preacher without more than a single bible colledge course & faith in Gal 1:11-12; do I really need to change my approach now? I did however get my hands on his favorite rendition of the scriptures; translated from a hebrew "origonal" of most of the new testament (save 2 Pet, Jude & James I think, called the "hebraic roots" version)

Albeit minor points, I just read the last verse in James & it just taught me that error = sin & even if you read a different translation anything short of the Glory of God or perfection is sin also (Jas 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. " Doesn't this kinda teach what Jesus did - "A little leaven leavens the whole lump"? ) . And the last time I checked the wages of sin was still death. True I gotta be meek & I tried my best when I said that the scripture he just quoted didn't exist; but am I responsible for his reactions? Sheesh my problem is that I am comming from the standpoint of Ezek 3:19 which says that if I warn 'em & they dont listen at least I saved my own soul (The scripture that came to mind when he called the man's saying a scripture & a translation a paraphrase was Isa 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil" ) .

I dunno what to do so I am going to have faith in the same scripture that I have faith in when I am asked to speak at Bob's dinnertime meetings Mk 13:11; "in that hour" God will give me the words to speak & I will handle him next time however it seems appropriate if I don't run away.

Chelki brought up a good point; just that a rabbi may very well have some truth. I even get rabbi mail through aish.com (not that I had the time to read any of it lately & they are just Rabbi's, not messianic Jews) .

Dear Slade,

Again, I love you. But I have to tell you that I believe you are manipulating scripture to justify your actions. Look close at your second paragraph. This is a terrible misrepresentation of God's Word.

I point you to the last statement you write at the end of every post:
"The more you know, the more you should realize how much you have to learn"

I agree with this statement and believe it is a great call to more humility. There is a corollary to this statement which says, The more I learn the less I understand.

Sorry buddy I am not understanding what part of said paragraph is misrepresenting God's word (or the whole thing) - are you saying that error does not equal sin? Are you saying that Jas 2:10 & a little leaven leavens the whole lump doesn't teach the concept that a little problem makes the whole situation bad? Perhaps you don't believe that God gave me Ezek 3:17-21 as a personal mission? Or does calling the word of God the word of man & the word of man the word of God not at all remind you of Isa 5:20?

I know I am probably handling the situation wrong but I am duty bound to do the best I can.

Dear Slade,

The part that concerns me is that you are using the passages to say that an error in any one part of scripture makes a person guilty of sin which leads to death. And that you become duty bound to "save" a person from their error (death) by giving them the correct interpretation - no matter what the cost.

First of all, this is not what is meant in the passage in James. In this passage, James is exhorting his Brothers to adhere to the seemingly lessor parts of the law in the sense of how they treat one another - do not show favoritism is in the same list as do not murder. The key is in how we are treating one another. But notice that in verses 12 and following he transitions to the fact that we are to act as those who will be judged based on the "law" of mercy. Because of the grace we have been shown we can extend great grace to others.

And no, Jesus is not teaching that a little problem makes the whole situation bad. I am learning this truth more and more in church ministry. If this were the case ALL of our churches would be hopeless. There are many, many problems in our churches - and not all of them are to be handled in the same manner with the fear of corrupting the whole batch. Jesus here is talking specifically about hypocrisy; but on a broader level, I suppose it is safe to extend His meaning to doctrinal issues which lead us away from Christ. Not every issue in God's Word is worth going to war over...but some are.

Regarding his comments about the NLT. This is simply an error which could be gently corrected with a little research. I even made this same comment before I learned more about the NLT. I initially thought it was a paraphrase because of the history and similarity of name with the Living Bible, which was a paraphrase. The NLT is a translation, not a paraphrase.

Above all else.... Our entire purpose is to glorify God in all we do. And one of the ways we to this is by demonstrating His character in all we do. In demonstrating His character we need to discern which issues require absolute firmness (presented in love) and in which issues there is extra room for abounding grace. I am continually amazed at how much greater room there is for grace - I seem to fall short time and time again.

Keep seeking and serving!!

Thank you, I love you like a brother & respect you as my pastor (Steve); please forgive me but as you know by now, I like to talk too much; probably well after the point I should have shut up. Boy do I have problems with Jas 1:19 or what?

I just want to make sure you have the same opinion regardless.

As I pointed out I don't have a problem with his intrepretation of scripture (well maybe I do but that's a different issue, I can detail 1 difference of interpretation later) but moreso I am thinking about the same passage that the rabbi quoted to me - Rev 22:18 - don't you think that he is breaking that one when he says that a man's saying "spare the rod, spoil the child" is a scripture (Remember, he didn't admit untill the next week that he was paraphrasing, he never showed what scripture he was paraphrasing & he probably would never have admited that he paraphrased if I hadn't called him on it & the only scripture that I can think of that he might have been trying to paraphrase, Prov 22:15 - the rod that will drive foolishness from a child in that scripture isn't refering to a beating {which is what the rabbi was talking about} but rather, the rod of Jesse, or Jesus. ) ? Or saying that the motive of God creating the universe was to express his love (to us) without even 1 scripture to back him up? The scripture tells me "who has known the mind of the Lord?" (Rom 11:34) I see a lot of what God does in the scriptures & very little of His motives. Yes we can assume & guess what the scripture is implying without directly saying; but are not teachers duty bound to inform their students that the material they are reciting is just a supposition or man's saying (about the scriptures) & not in fact a scripture, if that's what it is? I just make a distinction in my preaching if I am repeating a scripture, a rhema word, or a man's saying, or a guess & I expect any good teacher to do the same.

Ok let's assume you are correct (as 99.99% of the time I agree with you, although I haven't had the time to read too many of the devotionals lately) & that I am supposed to have more grace towards his errors in doctrine, I still have a question, what about the scripture in Gal 1:8-9 (doesn't this teach that errors in doctrine are no good)? O.K. if a little leaven doesn't leaven this whole lump then because we are agreed on the foundation that Jesus is part of the anatomy of God (It took me some effort to pry that little nugget out of him one day when he was going on & on about how the trinity is no good because God is not 3 persons, but one {I don't agree with the trinity either but for a different reason, namely that I don't agree with the word "mystery" in the doctrine [God described himself to me so clearly that it is no mystery] , we both call it the tri-unity} & all about how human Jesus was while he was on the earth & I am still unsure about his position on the complete, finished work of salvation on the cross & that salvation is by grace through faith, without works; because we dissagree on the amount of obedience to the old testament rules we need for sanctification, & he doesn't even think that it is impossible for us to keep the old testament laws {I am unsure if he means with or without faith or Jesus here I assume without, because he didn't mention anything like "I am the vine & you are the branches, without me you can do nothing" in this discourse. God told me that if any 1 human could have kept the whole law, that Jesus wouldn't have needed to come in the 1st place; compare Rom 3:20,23; Gal 3:24} his quote is "God wouldn't give us a set of rules we couldn't obey, would he?" & his scripture was Rom 3:31 - (doesn't this sound like human reasoning & a twisting of the scripture?) - he totally believes that all gentile believers should obey all the old testament diet & feast laws with exception to sin offerings for example, & I don't argue or correct him here which are important issues (to me) taught in Rom 14 & other places. On this issue I had the grace that you are asking me to even though I feel that it is a blatent error (however I try not to argue with someone who says obey God, even the old testament laws that I have faith that I don't have to pay attention to, because of Mt 5:19), besides I have no hope that he would listen to me on a middle sized or big issue if he wouldn't listen about a small one & he told me that Peter's vision had nothing to do with food, only the fact that he could preach to gentiles) then he probably isn't teaching that different of a gospel or Jesus huh? Or is he?

Ok for the difference of interpretation that was our first bible argument (that I backed down as I realized that there is no proof either way) was this issue & your opinion on it would be valuable to me -

He said that when the "veil of the temple was rent top to bottom" that the veil in question was not the veil between the inner court & the holy of holies; but rather the outer veil between the inner court & the outer court. He had a good explination or reasons for believing this because he was using Eph 2 that says He "hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us".

My argument was that the reason that it had to be the inner veil is because we can boldly have access to the throne of grace now (based on 3 scriptures Heb 4:16; Eph 2:18; 2 Cor 6:2)

Well as I said I backed down because I admit there is no scripture that says which veil was rent in twain.

I prayed to God about it later & He told me "Which barrier was more important to be broken? The barrier between God & man, or the barrier between man & man?" - I thought I had my answer that it was the inner veil. However I didn't rehash that one over again later with him & don't intend to.

Bob also told me that every issue I get into it with him is unimportant - I just don't see myself if I, without a degree, said something that wasn't in the bible was, how anybody would be telling the people who are yelling at me to shut up or that I am wrong to have grace on me & I wouldn't deserve any grace if I went around lying to people saying that the bible says something that it doesn't (Deut 18:22) . I can't find it now, but didn't Jesus say something very similar to the "golden rule" (do unto others as you would have them do unto you)? Well if I was teaching an error I would want someone to correct me because the scriptures teach me that if a pastor leads the sheep astray that is one of the most grevious of sins.

Bob is calling me arrogant & you said I was "manipulating scripture to justify your (my) actions" - perhaps both of you are right but I don't think so - I don't argue about the bible because I like to, I would much rather mind my own business not say anything to anyone about God, the bible or anytyhing else important; playing video games for the rest of my life being the most shallow, uninvolved in other people's lives person on the planet if I could get away with it - but God won't let me! He gave me a job & if I act like Jonah & run away from it then I get punished like Jonah. I may have mentioned before that once a pastor said "If you don't speak in tounges, you don't have the Holy Ghost" wich some can interpret to be a minor issue - I do; however I kept my mouth shut out of fear & I have never lived a day after that that I didn't feel guilty for not speaking the truth of God in that moment. I am sorry, but no matter how much you & Bob both say I am only justifying my erronious behavior, or Bob says that I am arrogant; I don't ever want to feel that way again. So I have faith in not only the scriptures I brought up before but a stack more - Num 23:12; 2 Tim 4:2; 40 Ps 9-10 to name a few it's not so much that I have faith in those scriptures but I live in those scriptures - I believe God gave me "zeal as a cloak" just like Jesus (Isa 59:17).

But at least I admit, maybe I am all wrong, misunderstanding everything I read in God's word, possibly I am making this all up, maybe I don't really know God or get instruction from Him, maybe I am not saved at all. Anything is possible. And I pray (daily, now) that if the problem lies with me that the Lord please fix me. So by the way how about I ask you to pray for me something similar?

I am just wondering if it is impossible (for me) to obey 2 scriptures at the same time - "Give them warning from me" & "Honor all men" or "Submit yourselves one to the other" for example.

And do I have to have respect for a rabbi that disobeys the scripture? 1 Cor 14:30 for example (ok maybe nobody agrees that this makes concessions for me to interrupt a bible study, I am not talking about an actual church service which I still {praise God} never felt I had to correct anyone but twice & both times I kept silent, the 2nd time {also a minor issue, he was teaching 1 Kings Chapter 4 & skipped over "Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over the host" in verse 4 went down to verse 19 "Og king of Bashan; and he was the only officer which was in the land" & taught that Solomon's reign was so peaceful he didn't have a commander of his army except for Og, king of bashan who was the only officer in the land} I couldn't talk to the pastor after the service & so I left the church {fearing more bad teaching to follow; the thing is I can be gullable & sometimes if someone says that something is a scripture [that isn't] I take their word for it; or at least I have before, & repeated false teaching as a result. Jesus said that when the blind lead the blind, both fall into the ditch in Mt 5:14 & I coulda swore that it was my job to pull people out of ditches} & years later I spoke to the pastor about it & he said that he didn't remember saying what he said but if he did I was right & if I pointed it out to him at the time that he would have admited it), not to mention the one that says don't call yourselves rabbi (which I didn't even ask the rabbi about).

You said that we should be "demonstrating His character" - well didn't Jesus confront the pharasees when they were wrong? Even so far as to cause a ruckus in the temple knocking the tables over as I recall... O.K. maybe I don't have permission to demonstrate that aspect of His character.

In any case I said before I don't want to run away from him (mainly because I am scared he is going to say "I resisted the devil & he fleed from me", ok, that's my pride I guess) but I do have an answer or an excuse to run away from him, namely 69 Ps 6 "Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel. " - I know that if some unbelievers walk by & see us arguing that they will probably say "See what those bible thumpers are good for?" . It's just that I recieved counsel from another friend who said "You can't be worried about the flock from over there - away from the flock - you need to be with the flock if you are worried about them" .

I would never say that all our churches are hopeless, but I do believe that "an error in any one part (or doctrine) of scripture makes a person guilty of sin which leads to death. And that you (I) become duty bound to "save" (not nessisarily "save", because that's the Holy Ghost's job, but rather, give a warning to) a person from (or about) their error (which could lead to death) by giving them the correct (doctrine or) interpretation" (& like I said my main problem in this instance isn't with interpretation it's with calling something a scripture that isn't) & also if a layperson has something to contribute doctrinally, that the leadership should accept it if it is of God (perhaps even if it is "disruptive" & I know that God wants everything done decently & in order according to 1 Cor 14:40), according to my interpretation of 1 Cor 14:29-31. God told me that He is infinite & we are finite, so no 1 human could ever get the whole pie, but we all have a piece, & it is our job to share the piece of pie that we have (if we bury our talent it is taken away from us).

As far as "A little leaven leavens the whole lump" - I heard a sermon about how the devil only added a little amount of lies to the truth that he told Eve, & we have sin in the world as a result; I was taught that even small doctrinal errors can lead to disastorus results.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Dear Slade,

You have a very good command of scripture and a good ability to pull scripture into your writing. However, it is difficult for me to know how to respond to your post - you have written a good deal. I will pick out two points which I believe ought to be addressed. I will be glad to respond to more points but try to make the responses short so as not to tax my aging mind.

First point: It is a common misapplication of scripture to extend Revelation 22:19 to the whole of the Bible. This passage was written for the letter we call Revelation. The fact that letter of Revelation comes at the end of our cannon of scripture is a result of how the church put the letters together to form our complete Bible. It is solely man's interpretation which tries to extend this to the whole of the Bible. And in my judgement it is a poor use of scripture to use this passage to debate someone on something like "spare the rod and spoil the child."

Second point: You say, "I do believe that "an error in any one part (or doctrine) of scripture makes a person guilty of sin which leads to death. And that you (I) become duty bound to "save"."

I'm interpreting you saying "makes a person guilty of a sin which leads to death" to mean something related to their Salvation. If this is the case I most strongly disagree. There are a few (very few) points of doctrine which are tied to Salvation. Therefore, there is a great many doctrinal issues in which people may differ and still be saved. For example, the order of the end times rapture, tribulation, and millennial kingdom is a doctrinal issue which defines denominations and in some cases can cause division in fellowship. However, nothing in end times doctrine is in the slightest way tied to Salvation.

Also, you need to define what is meant by doctrine. Doctrine is defined by some of the key issues taught in scripture. The Trinity is a doctrinal issue but the interpretation of Proverbs 22:15 cannot be classified as doctrine.

I hope this helps with understanding my thoughts.

Blessings in Christ

Thanks for your reply I really wanted to know what you thought about which veil was rent by the way.

OK, you are probably right about Rev 22:18 being in reference to the book of revalation only; because the same thing is said in Deut 4:2 & almost all the rest of the books of the bible with perhaps the exception of Job being produced after that time. However the rabbi was interpreting it like how I would like to but I guess I shouldn't anymore (esp if I take into account the last verse in Heb 11 making the bible open-ended) but in my eyes breaking his own standard. Didn't Jesus say something like "do what they say but not what they do" just for situations like this?

I gotta pray about it some more (I thought I already prayed about this years ago when I was a baby christian?) if I am abusing that scripture or not before I make a final decision to change my preaching. I like to think about it in the same way as another scripture (which I believe God told me to take out of context to apply to the whole of the word of God) Isa 8:20. Perhaps we are allowed to apply it to the whole of scripture, perhaps not. But I will definately advertise both views more often when that scripture comes out from now on. By the same token, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" should only apply to the old testament.

Of course saying that the bible is open-ended can be dangerous if someone gets people to believe in an additional book that is not inspired by God (like what I believe happened to the Mormons).

Thanks for the compliment (You have a very good command of scripture) - all that without a degree .

Oh & one last time about the little leaven bit - God told me that he judges the mind & the heart - so our motives & our doctrine must be correct: if one is good but the other isn't we might not make it into heaven. I know that God is free to have mercy where He sees fit to have mercy, perhaps not any little thing can land you in hell, but I prefer the other interpretation of the verse that came before, Jas 2:10 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." that tells me that if you live by the sword you die by the sword - the sword being the word of God, it's double edged because it cuts both ways (as much as it cuts you, it cuts me; the person weilding it has equal chance of getting cut as the opponent). Perhaps it is an issue that only has to do with rewards - some men build upon the foundation gold silver precious stones & some build with wood hay & stubble. You have a point, why don't we get to defining what is "doctrine" or at least what doctrine is nessisary for salvation. Well that's too big an issue to go into here & now (or is it? it'd be fun) but I am too tired from all this. My thought is Heb 5:12 - 6:3; we shouldn't be satisfied being baby christians.

I just got a man's saying in my mind that describes a biblical concept "To whom much is given, much is required" now if I remember correctly Kings & Priests had more rules to follow than laypeople in the old testament laws & I just was under the impression that if someone calls himself a teacher then he was to be held to a higher standard. Isn't there a scripture that says "any lie is not of the truth"?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Slade, about which veil it is –

I thought it interesting that the rabbi uses the “middle wall of partition” to mean the veil. I can’t say that I believe his reasoning is correct, but if he is coming from the perspective I think, he may actually have a valid point.

That being, that Christians should still recognize Jesus as their Great High Priest. If the veil to the Holy of Holies has been rent and we are allowed to enter in, is that good exegesis when only the High Priest could enter into the Holy of Holies, while no other priest could? We are a part of those other priests who I believe still do not function as the High Priest, who is eternally Jesus. Jesus brought the blood for atonement and while we benefit from that atonement, do we have a priestly responsibility or right to enter into the Holy of Holies? I recognize the scripture that says we can come boldly before the throne -- Hebrews 4:15-16 "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." Is this speaking more about confidence in grace than bypassing the function of the High Priest?

I can see that we could only have that right or ability if you consider that the priesthood might now allow it. I haven’t researched the scripture on that lately. If you find one that gives us that right I would be interested. But again, this is not one of those great dividing questions, just one I find interesting.

Blessings,
Chelki

Hello Slade,

Forgive me for taking the discussion back to your original posting, if only briefly. I do not want to hinder the direction of the discussion or interfere with the flow of comments being made; so I appreciate your indulgence and grace.

I have been reading the parable of the sower this week, as things would have it, the truths in this portion of God's Word may illuminate your problem with the Rabbi and the Rabbi's apparent problem discerning the Scriptures. Here is the link to Mark chapter 4:1-20, although the parable is also found in other gospel books:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%204:1-20;&version=9;

Anyone active in street ministry or any type of evangelism for that matter knows that sowing God's Word to others is a planting and watering process. We rely on the unction and anointing of the Holy Spirit to be sure, but it is not God's way to steer us to only the fertile ground. We sow the Truth to everyone who will listen to us as an act of love toward them and especially to our Lord. Brother Steve provided excellent advice when he exhorted you to invest some time in forming a relationship with the Rabbi which will provide richer opportunities to "teach the teacher". Even so, at this time, you do not know him well enough to determine in which of the four categories, as described in the parable, the Rabbi falls into at this point in his life.

How we react to those who do not listen to us says more about us than the listener. We know that the seed we sow will fall on ears and understanding of differing intensity and quality. I like the way Charles Surgeon phrased it in his sermon on this parable: "Our duty is not measured by the character of our hearers, but by the command of our God. We are bound to preach the gospel, whether men will hear, or whether they will forbear."

http://www.spurgeon.org/misc/sower.htm

But what if God's Word is twisted, mis-interpreted, or used incorrectly by those whom we are led to teach? What if those whom we try to teach mock us or make up fables to build their stature at the expense of God's Truth? What becomes of the message then and how shall we act in these situations? The answer lies in the sword- not the steel kind, but the Holy kind, God's Word.

In the Book of Isaiah, chapter 55:10-11 we read:

10 "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater; 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth; it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

Anyone who has listened to a debate of two individuals prepared to do battle with their tongues knows that rarely is there a winner of the contest. How we minister to those who try to mock us, make us into a liar or an ignorant uninformed fool must be governed by the knowledge of how God delivers his Word to those crossing our path. We must know and always remember that some ears will be open, while some will be filled with rocks and dirt, and the message just will not be understood or acknowledged - yet. We must always have faith that God's Word will never, not ever, return to us void.

Foolish bablings, folk tales, cutsy quotes with no scriptural support and just plain false doctrine are as void as the darkness from which the words originate. Such words will return void of all lasting truth, effect, and honor. Many will listen to such tales and believe in them We are told some people wlll have itching ears and will not accept sound doctrine:

2 Timothy 4:2-5

2 Preach the Word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned into fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Brother Slade, our weapon is not our intellect, logic, or verbal skills, though these things are nice to have in any endeavor we seek. Our weapon is so much more powerful than anything in our world, any person, place or thing. While we are commended to reprove, rebuke, and exhort those who malign God or His Word, we know our true weapon is Scripture and not our human talents that deliver it to the listener. His Word will not return void and our mission is to sow the seed, so that others and perhaps yourself, can water it later with love, forbearance, and long suffering and of course God's Word once again.

Hebrews 4:12-13

"12 For the word or God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight; but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do."

God bless you Slade.

Nick P.

Thanks guys - " God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you" (1 Sam 12:23) .

Chelki - about the priesthood & us having it there is a thought in Rom 8:17 that we are "joint-heirs with Christ" so that is touching or bordering on equality or partnership, sounding similar if not in power that perhaps in position, inheritance or maybe authority (Mt 25:40 "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me" has a similar thought if you flip the script - whatsoever they do to you they did to Jesus, also look at 1 Sam 8:7). Then look at Rev 1:6 it says that Jesus "hath made us kings and priests unto God" . If the "middle wall of partition" is the holy of holies then he broke it down & there is no problem for us to go in. because the same passage says He "hath made both one".

The ark was in the holy of holies, wasn't it? I heard Benny Hinn on TV last week or so & he surprised me by busting out a lotta scriptures (I am used to 2/hour before, now its like 6/15 min) & he was saying how the ark is in us; something about how the ark had the law in it - cross that thought with Heb 10:16 "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" . Ok now the ark had a lid & it was caled the mercy seat & "And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony" (Ex 25:22) . Now cross that over with the doctrine I explained earlier about how we can boldly have access to the throne of grace now & there you go. Interesting huh? God told me a long time ago that all the saints should have 2 angels with them at all times according to 91 Ps 11 - Wow!

The thing about Eph 2 is that I used those same scriptures years ago in the same sence that the rabbi did when I told a Jehovah's Witness that Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition between us. I believe that primarily the wall between God & man was broken & as a result or a by-product the wall between man & man was broken because the scriptures say "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:28) & that God "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth" (Acts 17:26) & "all ye are brethren" (Mt 23:8) .

Nick P - You busted out some of the very scriptures that were already going through my head, but a few others came out that I really need to focus on - namely 1 Cor 6:7 "Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?" & Mt 7:3 that tells me to take the telephone pole out of my eye so I can see clearly to take the toothpick out of his eye. 2 Cor 1:7 told me that my hope of him should be steadfast so basically I just need to focus on my own act (2 Pet 1:10) . After I had confessed that my doctrine level was higher than my obedience level to a friend (previously he didn't like me at all so praise God for fulfilling Prov 16:7 once again! ) , he told me that my obedience level should be higher than my doctrine level & even if he doesn't know the bible that well I believe God was speaking to me through him. That's why the scripture says "Judge not, that ye be not judged" (Mt 7:1) because as the man's saying goes when you point a finger at someone else, 3 more are pointing back at you.

Thanks for the sower & word not returning viod passages, as that was some comfort; so thanks for fulfilling Isa 40:1 .

Steve - I may have mentioned before "The more you know, the more you should realize how much you have to learn" is my paraphrase of 1 Cor 8:2 - "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know" .

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Thank you Slade for your reply. I see the middle wall of partition as being what separated the Jews from the Gentiles and the breaking down of it as fulfillment of Jesus' prayer for unity in John 17.

The scripture is to be cherished and treated with utmost care and then with humility we serve.

God bless,
Chelki

quote:

the explination for Jesus not knowing when he will return

I forgot to mention that I had an answer here - This is another verse that I "take out of context" but all I am doing is counting it as a messianic prophesy & a lot of those are "out of context" compare 69 Ps 21; 78 Ps 2; Look at 22 Ps 1, 7 & 8 - just remember that it is in "context" with verse 6 that would (to me) if taken in context negate this verse as being a messianic prophesy; but we all know that it is a messianic prophesy taken out of context - in any case look at my verse for the answer: 146 Ps 4 "His breath goeth forth (Mt 1:20), he returneth to his earth (Jn 1:10-11); in that very day his thoughts perish" - God blanked it out of Jesus' mind on His way to earth & that's what allowed him to "grow" (Lk 2:40)

Oh & I found a better passage that could possibly be paraphrased as "spare the rod, spoil the child" - namely Prov 23:13-14. Why do I gotta do the research? Acts 17:10-11; 2 Tim 2:15 - guess I answered my own question...