Hi,
I have studied the book of Revelations. I have learned alot from my studies. I know that there a two prevelent views on this book. one that the book fortells about the events that happened in the fall of Jerusuelm in 70 AD. Two that the book fortells about events that will happen in our future or beyond. Both views have very good arguments. I know this message board has many people that are very Theologically sound. Can anyone give me some advice on this subject.

Thanks,

Marc

I have never heard an interpretation that Revelations is about 70 AD, however I have heard that cirtain parts of revelation has already occured like the beast that had a big wound in it's head that got healed I heard was a reference to Germany reforming after the fall of the berlin wall (Not that I agree, but I did hear it preached). Most of what I see in the revelation is still future tense except for the letters in the 1st couple chapters as they were written to churches that were around during the time of the writing I believe although they also have important messages for us today, like all the scriptures.

Most evangelicals would certainly say that the events in Revelation are to happen sometime in the future. However, that is not the only view.

"Preterist" means past in fulfillment, and "Futurist" means future in fulfillment. Preterist basically means the opposite of Futurist.

A good explanation can be found at:
http://www.preterist.org/whatispreterism.asp

Neither view belongs in the list of essentials for the Christian faith and neither ought to be a dividing issue.

quote:

Hi,
I have studied the book of Revelations. I know that there a two prevelent views on this book. one that the book fortells about the events that happened in the fall of Jerusuelm in 70 AD. Two that the book fortells about events that will happen in our future or beyond. Both views have very good arguments. Can anyone give me some advice on this subject.

Hi Mark,
I'm not precisely 'theologically sound' but the Book of Revelation is so unique that all Christians have to deal with it at a given time.
It's the last book of the Bible and we are living the times foretold by it until God creates the 'new earth and the new heavens.' I think this great prophecy cannot be addressed from opposing angles after it has been in operation for nearly two thousand years. Most of the debates derive from the attempts at giving it an exact chronology, the defining historic marker being the second coming of Jesus with the implied doctrine of the Rapture.
Some of the events described in Revelation have certainly already occurred by 70 AD, others are currently in operation and the rest lie ahead in time.
Is there anything in particular that you would like to bring up for discussion? Or you may just as well share with us your understanding?
God Bless.

Hi,

Slade, Steve and Jorge thank you for responding to my discussion. Steve, I agree with you whole heartily when you wrote “Neither view belongs in the list of essentials for the Christian faith and neither ought to be a dividing issue.” I feel that It would not good for the body of Christ to become complacent (As the Jews did when Christ cam the first time) with our views. If there are other views of the book of Revelation we should at least entertain the idea against scripture. I truly do not want to cause a rift with my discussion. If you would like me to I can stop this discussion and not ask another question on this subject.

Jorge, I do have a lot of questions to ask but I would like to limit it to two. As I have studied the book of Revelation I have interpreted it as a chronological list of events. I know a lot of the Biblical scholars believe in a pre tribulational Rapture. This first time that I saw any mention of Rapture was Chapter 14 just prior to the seven bowels of wrath is pored on the Earth. I am trying to see this from the view point that pretribulational believers see this event. Can anyone clear this up for me?

Coming from the Perterest view point I have a hard time understanding that when in Chapter 9 John describes the Great Army that was 200,000,000 horsemen that he heard someone say. From what I understand the Preterest believe that this amount is symbolic to mean a lot of men. But in Chapter 7 John saw an Innumerable Multitude. So, what I have trouble understanding is if 200,000,000 horseman symbolic for a lot of horseman and there was no way John could have counted them why then he not give the Innumerable Multitude the same number? Can anyone clear this up for me?

Your brother in Christ,

Marc

I am very doubtful that the revelation was given in chronological order - the reason being is because if I look at what I have been taught about the tribulation & great tribulation & look at what I read in revelation it seems as if cirtain events described in different chapters happen at the same time - so if my view is correct then the narrative is much similar to how I tell stories - I will start the story & after I go a bit I will remember something I missed & so I have to go back & relay the extra information (I however try & clarify when I am going back & forth but the bible doesn't seem to place a great importance on letting us know when it does it).

Now the pre tribulation rapture was described to me that because the church isnt mentioned after chapter 5 that they are not present & raptured before chapter 6 - now I don't aggree with this view because of the passage in chapter 12 v. 17 that says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Now the people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ sounds like the church to me but some people try to make a distiction that they are tribulation saits; a whole different category but the scripture tells me in Rom 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" & the scripture tells me that the body of Christ is the church & that the gift of preachers was given to the body of Christ (compare Col 1:24 & 1 Cor 12:4-28)

Also another reason that I don't believe in the pre-tribulation rapture as it was taught to me is because Jesus said in Mt 24:15-21 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (You can also look at Lk 21:6-28) Who do you think He was talking to? Cirtainly not non-believers & he definately would not think that people that don't love him would convey this message after His church has gone from the earth. One of the things that the antichrist will do is burn all the bibles & make it illegal to own one (compare Am 8:11-12); not too many non-believers have read the (whole) bible & studied it long enough to remember what it says without one. The scripture says that during the tribulation the non-believers will be asking the rocks to fall on them to hide them from God. Those passages (in Mt 24 & Lk 21) does not look like we will be raptured before the tribulation but maybe before the great tribulation because it was described to me like this that the antichrist will make a peace treaty with Jerusalem for 7 years (which corresponds to the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy - Dan 9:24-27 focusing on v. 27) & half way through that 7 years he will go back against it & war against Isreal. That half way point is supposed to be the beginning of the Great tribulation. Somewhere along the line (I can't tell when I read the revelation exactly when) the antichrist will commit the abomination of desolation wich according to Paul he said in 2 Thess 2:3-4 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God." That tells me that the rapture won't happen untill the antichrist is revealed by doing the abomination of desolation wich is the act of sitting in the Jewish temple & calling himself (a) god. & I was taught that the antichrist won't do that untill the great tribulation wich means that at least half of the 7 year tribulation will be over by then.

I believe that the scripture tells me that we will be raptured just before Jesus makes his triumphant 2n'd comming as it states here in 1 Thess 4:17-18 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." {I cross that decension over with Mt 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." & Zech 14:4 wich says "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."} & here in 1 Cor 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Now I heard that the last trump is the one that already happened last rosh hashhanna (I dunno how to spell) but as we know we were not raptured so that can't be the case. I think it is refering to the 7 trumpet judgements in the revelation. Seeing as how I havent looked lately I will check what the 7th trumpet judgement is - I found a mention of the 7th trumpet here at chapater 10 v. 7 "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." That looks like a reference to the rapture to me - it says that when the 7th trumpet sounds the mystery of God will be finished - one of my favorite scriptures says "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Cor 13:12)That tells me that when I get my new body (at the time of the rapture according to 1 Cor 15:52) I will be given all knoledge about God - so that sounds like a perfect fit to the mystery of God being finished.

I have talked to a few pre-tribulationalists & their whole platform is based on the scripture in 1 Thess 5:9 wich says "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," They however have no good answers to the points that I bring up & prefer to ignore all the scriptures that I mentioned in the last 3 paragraphs to form my doctrine.

Now let me show you all the passages I found in revelation that appear to be talking about the rapture to me:

>I already mentioned 10:7
>12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." foucusing on the phrase "Now is come salvation"
>12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That looks like because a time & times & half a time may be refering to 3 & a half years that the rapture will happen midway point through the tribulation & therefore about the time of the transition between the tribulation & the great tribulation, but as I mentioned before according to 2 Thess 2:3-4, the abomination of desolation has to happen before the rapture
>14:16 "And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped."
>16:17 "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done." Compare this with 10:7 that says the mystery of God is finished

So if I am correct & all those verses are in reference to the rapture - the revelation cannot possibly be in chronological order.

As far as the reason that God put a number on one amount & no number on another well they were two different things; one was an army as you pointed out so therefore it would be able to be numberd but the inummerable number is because it is talking about all the saints that have lived from the time of Adam untill us - definately a number that a human brain would have a hard time concieving - probably more than a google wich is a 1 followed by a hundred zeroes. Oh & I calculate 200 thousand times a thousand at 2 billion, not 200 million. And it doesn't say that he counted them, but rather heard the number of them.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

marckc - I have no problem with this discussion, feel free to continue. Thanks for being considerate.

I just looked at the link that Steve gave & realized that the preterist view has to do with the 2nd comming of Jesus already happening at 70 AD - well if that were the case then we would already have our new bodies as when he comes back we will be changed according to 1 Cor 15:52 (keep reading down to v. 55 - it says that we will be immortal but I still see people die in the news) & for some reason I don't seem to have all knoledge of God now, neither can I move at the speed of thought nor can I see the father with my phisical eyes. I haven't seen a city decending from heaven with streets of gold either... (although one view is that we ourselves will be the city - compare 1 Cor 3:9, Mt 5:14, Rev 3:12, Rev 21:2, Jer 3:14) The closest I can come to agreeing with any of that which I percieve to be nonsense is the fact that on the day of Pentacost the Holy Spirit, one part of the same God that Jesus is came to earth. But if Jesus' second comming already happened then this would be the 1000 year millenial reighn now (hasn't it been almost 2000 yrs after the crucifixion?) & I don't think we have seen 1000 years of peace & the absence of the Devil at all since the time of the crucifixion. After that it says that the Devil will be released from his prison & have a 2nd battle of armageddon & then there will be a new earth & a new heaven where there will be no more tears & no more Devil & no more war & no more suffering. Seeing as how there is still suffering I can't accept that view. I understand how people want to say something as seemingly foolish as Jesus already came back; because of the same problem I have with the 70 week prophecy of Daniel. According to common interpretation of that prophecy the 1st 69 weeks already happened & it would put almost all our minds at ease (considering that we want to call God truthful & honest & Daniel a true prophet of that same God & there is a passage that says if any part of a prophecy doesn't come to pass then the prophet is a false one) if we could make the 70th week follow directly after the 1st 69 weeks. But as I mentioned before in another post I was taught that somehow, someway God decided to have the 70th week not directly follow the 1st 69 weeks & so now in the interim we have what is called by some "The times of the gentiles" - Jesus Himself used that term in Lk 21:24.

Another reason I can't go for the preterist view is because of the quote I already quoted "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" Now if we already in past tense experienced the worst tribulation of all time, why does the news tell me that things keep getting worse & worse as time goes on? More people die by war & car accidents every year - more people die by natural disasters, more people die by heat stroke in the summer & frostbite in the winter every year & don't even get me started about the crime rate... The scripture says that when all these things are happening that it is just the beginning of sorrows. Jesus mentioned how the terrible circumstances will happen with increasing intensity & frequency akin to a woman's (child) labor pains or birth pangs up untill the time of the great tribulation.

One more thing - one of the prophecies in revelation could not have possiblty have been fulfilled at the time of 70 AD - in fact it could not have been fulfilled untill probably my lifetime because the scriptrure says "3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." Rev chapter 11 - now in that passage it says that "they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half" Now before the age of satelite tv & live broadcasts of news from the other side of the world & the age of CNN this was just simply not possible.

There is another prophecy in revelation that looks like a helichopter with ruber bullets to me - "7And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. 8And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months." Chapter 9 - now the hair like women could refer to the chopper blades & teeth like lions sounds like the paintings on some choppers I have seen & the sound of their wings sounding like many chariots sounds similar to the noise of a chopper to me & I say with rubber bullets because it says that they will hurt us not kill us.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Thank you Slade,

Thank you for your responses to my questions. Your responses have cleared up some of my questions. I feel that you help expound and enforce my belief in what I have read and researched. I was raised in church and saved and baptized at an early age. I don’t think I ever really understood what Christ really meant at the time. Through my teenager years I feel away from the Church and lived for myself and my own gratifications. About two years ago it finally clicked in my head of who Christ really was and the relationship that I desperately needed in my life. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am gust starting to learn what the bible is teaching us so please excuses my lack of knowledge.

I would like to retract to one of my previous questions. I don’t think I was clear on my question so I would like to ask it again with more detail. It appears that the Preterist view is that the Revelation that John had was fulfilled by the fall of the Jewish State in 70 AD. The Preterist view takes most if not all of the writing in the book of Revelation as symbolic. John writes in Revelation 9:16 “Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.”. The Preterist view is this number cannot be take literally. In one of views this great army represented the Roman army that brought down the Jewish State in 70 AD. What I am trying to say In Chapter 7 John saw an Innumerable Multitude. What I have trouble understanding is if 200,000,000 horseman is symbolic for a lot of horseman (The Roman army) and there was no way John could have counted them so they would also have been an Innumerable Multitude if he had not heard them say it. If the two hundred million was not to be taken literally then why bother giving it an exact number and not just call it an Innumerable Multitude?

The Preterist also believe that the 1000 year reign is also symbolic for a long time span and not to be taken literally. So they believe those 1900+ years since the second coming is OK.

The Preterist believe the Two Witnesses that this could be symbolic for a group of people or Moses and Elijah. But I would think we would have found some writings about these events from non Christians that two men came with this power.

Your brother in Christ,

Marc

I am glad to hear that you are growing closer to the Lord. Remember the scriptiure says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:..." in Hos 4:6 & also to "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." in 2 Tim 2:15. I pray that your search for the truth is fruitful & it should be because "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." Jas 1:5.

I don't fully understand the preterist view as it is totally new to me so I don't think I can answer the revised question any better than I already have (I don't have anything new to add). It is up to you what parts of the bible you want to take literally & what parts you want to take figuratively. I know some parts are clearly literal & some parts are clearly figuative but for the individual studier it takes teachers & prayer to be able to tell the difference.

One part that I know is figuative is the passage that says "Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days." Eccl 11:1 - Now the word bread there could mean the truth of God (like the daily bread, compare Jn 6:35,48) & the waters could mean the people (compare Rev 17:5) - I seriously doubt that Solomon meant for us to throw food into the ocean...

The revelation is much harder to distinguish - as it is filled with prophecy the general language of future tense prophecys are always clouded in symbolism but sometimes it is filled with facts. It is not up to me to tell you wich is wich; I can only give you my opinion (& my opinion is that 200 thousand X 1 thousand is 2 billion & that is a literal amount of people in that army).

Remember there is at least 1 prophecy that the number used in the prophecy wasn't 100% accurate because it was prophsised to Abraham that his seed would spend 400 years in captivity; but they in fact spent 420 years in chains before Moses helped God set them free - according to some bible scolars.

Some people take the numbers in the bible too seriously & make all kinds of statements (& doctrines) that there are hidden meanings when cirtain numbers are used - for instance I have been taught that 7 is the number of completeness because there are 7 days in a week & 8 is the number of new beginnings as the 8th day is the 1st day of the next week. It is also up to you wether or not you will pursue this type of research but as for me, I don't place much stock on "hidden" or symbolic meanings in the numbers of the bible - when we start looking for the hidden meanings that don't come from God, but rather men then we are walking into dangerous territory - as that is how most cults confuse & mislead us, by promises of "hidden" wisdom.

You said you had a lot of questions, perhaps I can be more help with some of the other ones.

As far as they way you worded the question about the different numbers the 1st time - sometimes I get similar questions; I cant remember any examples now but sometimes we have to just have faith that God had the writer word it the way he did for a reason, maybe it is the writers' style, as sometimes when I am writing if I see that I am repeating the same phrase over & over I will go back & edit it to change the words so as to not sound repetitive, as I was taught that repetitive phrasing is an unatractive form of writing. Sometimes I repeat myself anyway because I cant think of an appropriate synonym of the phrase that I am repeating.

I heard the Moses & Elijah theory but it isn't too convincing because Jesus said that Elijah already came back in the form of John the Baptist. Perhaps you will remember that Elisha asked Elijah to give him a double portion of his spirit. Well when he got it I don't think that it was Elijah's spirit at all but the one & selfsame spirit - the Holy Spirit; the same spirit was operating in John the Baptist. The scripture says "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" Heb 9:27 & "As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." Job 7:9 - that tells me that Moses isnt comming back, however Elijah didn't die - he ascended in a firey chariot; so perhaps he could come back, perhaps with Enoch who was translated or taken by God.

Another reason I can't go for the preterist view is because almost nobody denies that Jesus was born (they may debate wether He was born of a virgin) & that He lived & that He died; some debate wether or not He was raised from the dead but my point is that He was one of the most controversial figures in history - now if we believe that He is part of God & therefore immortal if He came back at 70 AD then He should still be here & probably be a public figure - but I have never heard anyone say that Jesus returned from the heaven, & I never seen him in the news preaching or doing miricles or any such thing - so what do the preterists say - that he came back in spirit? He already did before 70 AD compare Col 1:27 "Christ in you" & 2 Cor 13:5 "Jesus Christ is in you" - if he came back in the flesh like the Bible says he will then there would be evedence not to mention there would be Himself walking around & I never saw Him to tell you the truth - if I did He must be incognito. If Jesus came back do you think He would have allowed his church to be so divided by denominations? If He was here then He would set us straight in all matters of doctrines & there wouldnt be any need for us to ask each other these questions as we could go directly to Him. And isn't the mount of olives still in one piece? As the scripture I pointed out earlier stated when Jesus comes back He will set his foot on it & cleave it in 2.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Slade,

Thank You so much! You have been a tremindous help with my studies. I thank you for taking the time to help me understand God's Word. I still have alot of studing that I need to do in the future.

Your brother in Christ

Marc

It is my pleasure & my privledge - but don't thank me (although I appreciate it) thank our father as the scripture says in Lk chapter 17 - "7But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

I just looked at my interlinnear bible wich has the origonal language words & checked with the origonal language dictionary & accrding to that there are 2 possible interpretations for that verse in Chapter 9 as far as I can tell - the words used are according to the numbers assigned by James Strong in his exauhstve concordance are #1417 (two) #3461 (10,000) #3461 (10,000) - now that word #3461 has another interpretation, being myriad - so it could read either 200 million as you were saying or 2 myriads of myriads - wich can be interpreted an innumerable amount. The other passage had different words in it that were much more clearly saying that no one could number the amount, whereas this passage clearly states that he heard a number.

So I guess if you wanted to use the inumerable amount instead of 200 million in that verse it may almost be interchangeable (except for the problem of John having heard a number).

I guess that's one of the disadvantages of reading the KJV; as I don't see exactly what the origonal has in it & sometimes from 61% up to 100% of the other surviving manuscripts have some sort of change or difference of a word or two in about 1100 of the verses of the new testament with some having 3 or more readings...

What I am trying to say is thank you for causing me to study this out as I do not want to preach false information; so I will be changing the notes I made in my bible right away to correspond to the popular 200 million.

Hmmm maybe there is a small possiblity of a 3rd interpretation - 210,000 X 10,000 wich would equal 2 Billion 100 million - hmmm, maybe I was correct or close after all... I am unsure at this point so I will just pray about it & see if I get an answer. Who knows maybe it could read 21,000,010,000 wich would make it 21 billion 10 thousand but that seems even less likely than 2 billion seeing as how we only just passed 6 billion on the planet in the late 1990's according to this article I found here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/thisweek/story/0,12977,1347639,00.html

Maybe we are supposed to be adding the numbers instead of multiplying them wich would make it 20,002. This is prooving to be a good study :-)

quote:

This first time that I saw any mention of Rapture was Chapter 14 just prior to the seven bowels of wrath is pored on the Earth. I am trying to see this from the view point that pretribulational believers see this event. Can anyone clear this up for me?

The first problem with the Rapture is that, whether pre- or post-tribulational, it has been seen in many places within the Book of Revelation. As pointed out by Slade, the idea leading to the doctrine of the Rapture was a revelation given to Paul (1 Th 4:17: “Then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”) However, it appears implied by Jesus Himself in the Parable of the Reapers (Mt 13:30) and in the Olivet Sermon (Mt 24:31.)
Apart from chapter 14, propositions for the Rapture in Revelation include:
(1) 3:10: The promise given to the Church of Philadelphia (hence, to all believers) of being kept from the hour of trial, which implies being removed from the tribulation.
(2) 4:1-2: John is invited to come up and enter the Throne Room through an open door in Heaven. In this case John symbolises all believers. The voice “as of a trumpet” inviting John to come up is paralleled to the Seventh Trumpet and to the Last Trumpet announcing the coming of Jesus (1 Col 15:52; 1Th 4:16)
(3) 4:4; 5:9-10: The 24 elders clothed in white linen, wearing golden crowns and singing a song of victory have been identified as the glorified Church. They are in Heaven because they have been already judged and redeemed after the Rapture.
(4) 4 – 18: The Church is not mentioned on Earth, therefore, the Rapture has taken place somewhere between these chapters.
(5) 7:9-17: The great multitude standing before the Throne, clothed in white and waving palms symbolising the redeemed people of the Kingdom.
(6) 11:11-19: The ascension of the two martyred Witnesses as representatives of the Church.
(7) 11:15: The Seventh Trumpet as the sign of Christ’s Second Coming; a conventional Christian symbol stemming from Paul and the Olivet Sermon as quoted above.
(8) 11:15-18: The great voices in Heaven after the Seventh Angel sounded the trumpet with the implied vindication of the Saints.
(9) 12:5: The male child caught up to God as representative of the Church (the New Covenant born from the faithful spiritual remnant of Israel.)
(10) 19:11- 20:6: Chain of events usually associated with the Rapture.

The implications of Chapter 14 for the Rapture appear in two places: Verse 3 (“... they that had been purchased out of the earth”) and the harvest of 14:14-20. In verse 3 I see the “faithful spiritual remnant” of Israel spoken of by Paul. In 14:14 through 20 I see judgement rather than rapture, the first reaping of the Parable. In neither of them Jesus and His elect are seen as Paul said.
Hope this helps.

"Hi,
I have studied the book of Revelations. I have learned alot from my studies. I know that there a two prevelent views on this book. one that the book fortells about the events that happened in the fall of Jerusuelm in 70 AD. Two that the book fortells about events that will happen in our future or beyond. Both views have very good arguments. I know this message board has many people that are very Theologically sound. Can anyone give me some advice on this subject.

Thanks,

Marc"

Hi Marc, I'm new on the forum, I just was browsing the issue of preterism debates with others and came across this board. You make some good observations. However, I think it is very simple to know which view makes more sense biblically. First, I want to let you know I am a Christian who adheres to the preterist view. It isn't because some pastor or teacher told me to believe it. It is because I cannot ignore what the scriptures plainly say. I used to be a dispensationalist (futurist), but it was not because I read the bible. I believed it because my pastor taught it and also because I trusted "prophecy teachers". I didn't think there was any reason they should lie to me. Boy, was I wrong! When I started reading the bible for myself, I began to question what they were telling me. As I kept reading, it became even more apparent, they were outright deceiving those they preached to.

But, enough about that, let's get to the good stuff. Let's first define terms. You were right, futurists basically say that the events of Revelation are "yet to be fulfilled" and preterists say that the events of Revelation were fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD. But, there is a reason both say those things. It is a principle called "hermeneutics" or better understood "how one interprets scripture". The scriptures do something very interesting. There are a few issues when reading scripture. One is called "audience relevance" which asks the questions "who, what, when, where, why, how?" I will explain that a little further. Another principle is called "literalism". The futurists will say that the preterists are not "literal", yet the futurists will say that futurists are literal. Literal simply means "by the letter". As it is written. This is where the stuff hits the fan.


Let me first give the "literalism" of futurism. A futurist believes that when scripture uses prophetic language like: sun, moon, stars, heaven and earth, death, hell, etc; it means absolutely literal, and to "spiritualize" it changes what it says. A futurist will also see words like wolf and lamb from Isaiah and believe that means literal wolves and lambs. That is the basic premise. Also, when they see terms like "coming in clouds" in reference to Jesus' coming, it means literally on a cumulus cloud and Jesus coming in a physical, fleshly body. I would say that summarizes what futurists believe.

The "literalism" of preterism is a bit different. Preterists ARE literal when reading specific things. The reason preterists believe in "past fulfillment" is because of 2 main principles of hermeneutics. The first is "audience relevance", as I said earlier. The preterist, when reading any scripture asks "who, what, when, where, why, how?". In other words, "Who was the original audience? What were THEY told? When did THEY live? Where did they live? Why were THEY told those things? How did they understand the words to mean?" So, a preterist believes that when Jesus is addressing people in the gospels, it is to THOSE Jesus is speaking to, not people he isn't speaking to. When we see letters in the new testament, preterists believe that it should be taken at face value. Romans was to the Romans, Corinthians was to the Corinthians, Thessalonians was to the Thessalonians, Revelation was to the 7 churches in Asia, etc. Once we understand WHO is being written to, we can ask those other questions.

This is the first step to preterism. Understanding audience relevance first, acknowledging WHO the original audience was. Even futurists end up having to admit this fact, it was originally to churches in the 1st century. The second hermeneutic is even more interesting. The bible is FULL of "time-restricted" statements. In other words, in the gospels, epistles and Revelation, there are time-restricted words that, if taken "literally", mean that it was limited to the original audience, not stretching for 2000 years or postponed for 2000 years. A few examples of this is words like "near, at hand, quickly, shortly, about to be, end of all things, last days, last hour", etc. Preterists take these time-restrictions VERY literally. Futurists, instead of keeping their "literal" hermeneutic they love so much, have to "spiritualize" these time-restrictions to "fit" the bible to their theology. And ultimately, while futurists reluctantly admit the scriptures were written to churches in the 1st century, they end up having to "spiritualize" that too.


What preterists "spiritualize" is the prophetic language like sun, moon, stars, heaven and earth, death, hell, etc.

What futurists "spiritualize" is the audience relevance and time-restriction.

The question is, which is scriptural and which isn't? Does the bible "spiritualize" audience relevance and time-restriction as the futurists do? Or does the bible "spiritualize" prophetic language such as heaven, earth, sun, moon, stars, death, etc?

That is ultimately what you have to ask. Which one agrees with scripture? The argument of most futurists is that "time doesn't matter to God", so they can basically play word-games with the time restriction of prophecy. But, did you know that if time didn't matter to God, then God himself could NOT call anyone a false prophet? According to Deuteronomy 18, if what the prophet speaks does not come to pass, they shall die and/or you shall not be afraid of them. They would be a "false prophet". However, if time doesn't mean anything to God then "come to pass" would not be human time! A prophet could "spiritualize" their own words. An example of this is in Jeremiah 28. A false prophet said the Lord would end the captivity in Babylon in 2 years. If time is meaningless to God in prophecy, then that person could not be considered a "false prophet".

I typed up a little study on this "audience relevance" issue, I'll post it for you.


(WHO was the original audience? WHEN did they live? WHAT were they told? WHY were THEY told it? HOW did they understand it to mean?)

(If you don't address this issue, you can make the scriptures mean whatever you want them to mean and then the scriptures have no meaning at all)

You may say that the new testament is written TO US in the year 2005. This is not an uncommon Christian hermeneutic. However, I believe this view is lacking in common sense and it is insulting to the intelligence of Jesus, the apostles and the 1st century Christians. You may say it doesn’t matter, but let me ask you : does the reputation and validity of Jesus Christ matter? Because that is ultimately what is at stake.

Let us assume for just a moment that those who say ALL scripture is written TO US today in 2005 is true. Let us read some scriptures and decide if they are really TO US today.

Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. Gen 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Jos 6:3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.

Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Rom 16:7 Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Phi 2:19 But I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Phi 2:24 But I trust in the Lord that I also myself shall come shortly.

Phi 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

I think you can see where I am going here. If the bible is really written TO US today, then all these things I posted show: Christians must circumcise their foreskin, go around Jericho for 6 days, we could possibly betray Jesus to the Sanhedrin, we need to salute Andronicus and Junia, that there is fornication among us, that we are called to another gospel and are bewitched and do not obey the truth; that we are waiting for the apostle Paul to send Timothy to us and Paul will come to us as well. There are saints alive today who are saluting us from the ancient Roman empire in Caesar’s house and we in the USA are being persecuted by jews from Judea.


Let me give you another example of what I mean. Let's say you find a 150 year old envelope in your back yard. Turns out it was a letter from the Civil War. It was from a person in the South to a person living in the North. The letter says that the author believes slavery is evil and should be abolished and they want to support the North. Now, you as a person reading it in the year 2005 would obviously NOT read it as if it is written TO YOU, because you understand the author was writing to a different person living in a different time. But, you can read the truth in such a letter (which said that slavery should be abolished). Can you use truth from the letter today? Yes. Does that mean the letter is written TO YOU? No. Now think about it. This was only a 150 year old letter. Now, knowing this, how in the world can a person read a 2000 year old letter written to different people at a different time think it is written TO US today?


If it is a specific, personal writing to another person or group, to remove it from its time-context is not only silly, it is insulting to the intelligence of whom it was written to.

FACT #1 : The audience of the new testament were people who lived in the known Roman empire, including Judea and Asia Minor.

FACT #2 : The audience of the new testament lived during the time of Jesus and the apostles in the 1st century.

FACT #3 : The audience of the new testament understood the eschatology the apostles taught to them as being imminent events to happen within their lifetimes.

In most Christian circles, regardless of eschatology, the first 2 facts are usually acknowledged. The third fact is either ignored, ridiculed or intentionally changed. This third fact is what we will stay focused on, for this makes or breaks how we read scripture.

I want to address the usual argument I receive from those who reject Fact #3. They say "Time doesn't mean anything to God" and then they quote the infamous scripture 2nd Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. This is the single verse they use to say "to God time is meaningless". I would agree that God is timeless and is not bound by time. If the bible was God talking to Himself, I would concur 100%. But the bible is not God talking to Himself, it is God talking to MAN. So, the argument clearly is contradictory.

I will point out the silliness of using "1 day = 1000 years to the Lord and 1000 years = 1 day" view these people misuse wherever it makes their false theology fit. They say quickly, shortly, at hand, near, last days, last hour, etc are all 2000 years or longer. But let's assume the literalist approach they take is a fact. That 1 day is literally 1000 years. Let me misapply it just as they do and see if I am of sound theology. According to Matthew 12:40, Jesus was really in the grave for 3,000 years. According to Luke 4:2, Jesus fasted and was tempted of the devil for 40,000 years. According to Matthew 17:1, it took 6,000 years for the disciples to get to the mount of transfiguration. According to Revelation 2:10, the church at Smyrna would have tribulation for 10,000 years. And finally, the "thousand year reign" in Revelation 20 is literally only a single 24 hour day. This is the exact same logic those who misuse 2nd Peter 3:8 use.

Peter was referring to Psalms 90

Psa 90:1 <A Prayer of Moses the man of God.> Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 90:3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Psa 90:5 Thou carriest them away as with a flood; they are as a sleep: in the morning they are like grass which groweth up.

Why would Peter refer to this passage? Because notice, the first verse speaks about “all generations”, then speaks about a thousand years in His sight are as yesterday, then speaks about them being carried away with a flood. This is obviously a reference to Noah’s flood, because a “generation” in Noah’s time was about 1000 years. But to God, it only seemed like a day. What does it mean? It means that whether a generation is 1000 years in Noah’s time or 40 years in Peter’s time (since Peter is speaking about an imminent event), it is the SAME to God. The same type of judgment would happen in Peter’s generation as happened in Noah’s generation.


Now, I will use scripture IN CONTEXT to prove that God sees and speaks about time as MAN understands it. In our first study, we saw the fulfillment of the 70 weeks. This prophecy of Daniel is clearly time according to man, not God. God himself gave the amount of years it would take to be fulfilled (490 years).

2nd Example is found in Matthew 24:48 and Hebrews 10:37.

Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not delay.

Jesus himself said the EVIL SERVANT will say the Lord delays his coming. So, therefore, the good servant would say the Lord will NOT delay his coming. Sure enough, in Hebrews 10:37, we see that exact thing being taught. So, "delay" is understood in human time, for if it is not human time, then Jesus could not accuse someone of being an evil servant for saying it is delayed, since delay doesn't mean anything.

3rd Example is quite a long one, but proves the point. Luke 21:8 compared to Romans 13:11-12, Phil. 4:5, James 5:8, 1st Peter 4:7, Revelation 1:3

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not led astray: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and, The time is at hand: go ye not after them.

Rom 13:11 And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed. Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, and the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.

Phi 4:5 Let your forbearance be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore of sound mind, and be sober unto prayer:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Now, here is a dilemma. Those who say time doesn't mean anything to God will see terms like "at hand" and say "well that could be thousands of years". There is just one problem, Jesus told his disciples to NOT go after those who say the time is at hand. Why would that be? Because the time was not yet at hand. But only a mere 13-20 years later, the apostles all agreed and taught that the "time is at hand". Now, if it was NOT "at hand" 20 years earlier, but within 20 years it became "at hand", then it could only be understood ONE WAY - time as man understands, not as God would. OR the disciples were the very false teachers Jesus warned them about in Luke 21:8. Those are the only 2 reasonable options. I will stick with the first.

4th Example is Jeremiah 29:10,28. Jeremiah is told by God the 2nd time that they would be in captivity for 70 years. He is then told by God that the captivity is LONG. Now, if God considers a long time only 70 years, what would God consider a "short time"? Much less than 70 years! So, when Revelation 1:1 says it would "shortly come to pass", we can only conclude it means what it says. It would happen within the lifetime of those it is written to (the 7 churches in Asia) in less than 70 years (most likely 4-5 years).

My final example is the fact Daniel was told to “seal up” the words of his prophecy (Daniel 12:4, 9) because they were for many days (Daniel 10:14), until the time of the end (Daniel 12:4,9). Daniel was written about 500 years before Revelation was. So, 500 years means “many days” and wasn’t yet the “time of the end”, but Revelation 22:10 says “And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.” Why would Daniel be told to seal up his words for the “time of the end” yet John was told to NOT seal up his words because the “time was at hand”? Because the time of the end WAS AT HAND when Revelation was written. Daniel 12:1-10 clearly speaks about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD (vs 7), which also proves the time of the end was prior to 70 AD.

So, what does this all mean?

Well, I hope I have shown how time does matter to God and who that time restriction was given to - Christians in the 1st century. But one more thing needs to be addressed. Jesus spoke to 1st century people, and Paul, Peter, James and John were writing to several churches in the 1st century. They told THEM that they would be alive when Jesus returns (Matthew 10:23, 16:27-28, 24:34, John 21:21-24, 1st Thess 4:13-5:11,23, 2nd Thess. 1:4-12, 1st Cor 15:51-52, Titus 2:13, 1st Tim 6:14, 1st John 2:17-18, Revelation 1-3, etc). Now, every Christian I know will say the apostles and Jesus were fully inspired by the Holy Spirit, therefore, they did not make any mistakes. They didn't misunderstand things, they didn't teach something they weren't sure about, etc. Yet, when these plain scriptures are shown to those same people, they begin a circular argument (they would say "The apostles were HOPING that Jesus would come in their lifetime"). Well, if that were true, the apostles would not have stated such things as a FACT. So, in other words, the apostles could not be inspired to know when the 2nd coming would be, even though Jesus said there would be signs for them to watch for and the apostles told the churches what to expect. If we can't trust Jesus or his apostles to know when the 2nd coming would occur, what makes you think you can trust them on any other level such as doctrine?

I hope this study has opened yet another door into understanding eschatology according to the word of God.

God bless

Matthew - I appreciate the completeness of your discussion of this issue. However, I'm disappointed in the tone. We often do this within the Body of Christ - we take secondary issues and elevate them to the place of critical doctrine. When we do this we are forced into attacking those with opposing views and treating them, at best, as using poor Biblical interpretation and, at worst, as being deceptive liars. I wish we wouldn't do that. There are wonderful scholars on both sides of this issue and I don't believe either side is involved in deception. There are issues in the Christian faith worth going to battle over - but this isn't one of them. On this issue I believe we can disagree and still be united. Thanks again for all your input.