anyone have feedback on this??
thanks
dave

Why Jesus Christ Wasn't Born on December 25
History convincingly shows that Dec. 25 was popularized as the date for Christmas, not because Christ was born on that day, but because it was already popular in pagan religious celebrations as the birthday of the sun.

But is it possible that Dec. 25 could be the day of Christ's birth?

"Lacking any scriptural pointers to Jesus's birthday, early Christian teachers suggested dates all over the calendar. Clement ... picked November 18. Hippolytus ... figured Christ must have been born on a Wednesday ... An anonymous document[,] believed to have been written in North Africa around A.D. 243, placed Jesus's birth on March 28" (Joseph L. Sheler, U.S. News & World Report, "In Search of Christmas," Dec. 23, 1996, p. 58).

A careful analysis of Scripture, however, clearly indicates that Dec. 25 is an unlikely date for Christ's birth. Here are two primary reasons:

First, we know that shepherds were in the fields watching their flocks at the time of Jesus' birth (Luke 2:7-8). Shepherds were not in the fields during December. According to Celebrations: The Complete Book of American Holidays, Luke's account "suggests that Jesus may have been born in summer or early fall. Since December is cold and rainy in Judea, it is likely the shepherds would have sought shelter for their flocks at night" (p. 309).

Similarly, The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary says this passage argues "against the birth [of Christ] occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted" shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night.

Second, Jesus' parents came to Bethlehem to register in a Roman census (Luke 2:1-4). Such censuses were not taken in winter, when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads were in poor condition. Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating.

Given the difficulties and the desire to bring pagans into Christianity, "the important fact then which I have asked you to get clearly into your head is that the fixing of the date as December 25th was a compromise with paganism" (William Walsh, The Story of Santa Klaus, 1970, p. 62).

If Jesus Christ weren't born on Dec. 25, does the Bible indicate when He was born? The biblical accounts point to the fall of the year as the most likely time of Jesus' birth, based on the conception and birth of John the Baptist.

Since Elizabeth (John's mother) was in her sixth month of pregnancy when Jesus was conceived (Luke 1:24-36), we can determine the approximate time of year Jesus was born if we know when John was born. John's father, Zacharias, was a priest serving in the Jerusalem temple during the course of Abijah (Luke 1:5). Historical calculations indicate this course of service corresponded to June 13-19 in that year (The Companion Bible, 1974, Appendix 179, p. 200).

It was during this time of temple service that Zacharias learned that he and his wife, Elizabeth, would have a child (Luke 1:8-13). After he completed his service and traveled home, Elizabeth conceived (verses 23-24). Assuming John's conception took place near the end of June, adding nine months brings us to the end of March as the most likely time for John's birth. Adding another six months (the difference in ages between John and Jesus) brings us to the end of September as the likely time of Jesus' birth.

Hi Dave! Great topic!! I'm not sure what input you are looking to get, but here's a couple points.

The first part of this write-up is absolutely true. I will be sending out a devotional message about this on Wednesday. December 25th was the "declared" date for the birth of Christ. This date was chosen to correspond with a pagan holiday and not based on any thought that Christ was actually born on this date.

The second portion of the write-up is a theory of when Christ was actually born. It should not be read as conclusive evidence. There is equal arguments for other dates such as in the Spring.

The more important question involves what Christmas really means - not just in words but in how it is reflected in the way we celebrate the holiday. We've heard a lot this year about "Happy Holiday" vs. "Merry Christmas" but I would challenge the "Christian" community to examine how they celebrate and see how much effort is given to something that looks like "Happy Holiday" and how much is truly devoted to Christmas, a celebration of the birth of the Son of God who came to die for the forgiveness of our sin.

Christmas vs. the Bible
How well do the customs and traditions of Christmas match the biblical account of Christ's birth? An objective look shows that many traditions supposedly rooted in the Bible don't match the biblical account.

Did three wise men travel to see Jesus? The Bible doesn't say. There could have been more. We are told only that they gave Jesus three kinds of gifts: "gold, frankincense, and myrrh" (Matthew 2:1, 11). The number of wise men is not known.

Did everyone exchange gifts when Christ was born? Gifts were presented to Jesus because He was born "King of the Jews" (verses 2, 11). This was the expected custom when appearing before a king, thus the wise men brought gifts fit for a king: gold and valuable spices. Jesus alone was the recipient of the gifts; others did not exchange gifts among themselves.

Did the wise men, as nativity scenes often depict, arrive to find Jesus in a makeshift shelter–a manger–because there was "no room in the inn"? (Luke 2:7). Not really. By the time the wise men arrived, apparently some time after Christ's birth, Joseph's family was residing in a house (verse 11).

Did the writers of the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) consider Jesus' birth to be one of the most significant events for Christians to acknowledge or celebrate? Mark and John do not even mention the event. Although Matthew and Luke mention it, neither gives the date. None of the biblical writers says anything about commemorating Christ's birth.

Did Jesus Christ tell us to celebrate His birth? No. However, He left explicit instructions regarding how His followers are to commemorate His death (1 Corinthians 11:23-26).

Hi Dave! These are good points, but we should not take your last paragraph to mean that it is wrong to celebrate the birth of Jesus. However, it is always good for us to look at how we are celebrating and see if we are giving Him true reverence.

Crucial Questions
Many people are shocked to discover the origins of our most popular religious holidays . They are also surprised to find that the days God commands us to observe in the Bible—the same days Jesus Christ and the apostles kept—are almost universally ignored. Why? Also, why are today's supposedly Christian holidays observed with so many rituals and customs that are not sanctioned anywhere in the Bible? In this booklet you'll discover detailed answers these questions.

We pride ourselves on being rational, thinking people. We think of ourselves as up to date in our thoughts and actions. We try to have good reasons for everything we do.

Why, then, do we do some of the things we do?

Consider, for example, Christmas. Why do we pretend that a jolly old man in a red suit who lives at the north pole rides around in a sleigh pulled by flying reindeer and drops down chimneys to leave toys (made by elves) for good boys and girls on one night of the year?

Then, at Easter, why do we pretend that rabbits lay brightly colored eggs?

Ask yourself: Do these myths and customs make any sense? Yet we persist in perpetuating them to our children. Oddly enough, we also attach great religious significance to some of these practices. Many are integral parts of celebrating the most sacred days of traditional Christianity.

Why do so many professing Christians, seeking to follow the One who said "I am the light of the world" and "He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness" (John 8:12), perpetuate such strange customs whose origins come not from the Bible but from the dark, dim mists of antiquity?

It's not that the origins of such customs cannot be determined. Often, around the time of these holidays, newspapers and television shows describe the origins of some of these practices. Encyclopedias and other books often help paint a picture of the passing of these customs down to us from ancient cultures.

All too often the picture isn't a pretty one.

After all, what do a bearded man in a red suit, brightly decorated trees, mistletoe, holly and candles have to do with the birth of Jesus Christ? Why is Dec. 25 assumed to be the day of His birth when the Bible itself nowhere gives the actual date and, in fact, gives many good reasons to show Jesus could not have been born at that time of year?

These are crucial questions.

The true worship of God

Worshiping God is the most honorable endeavor any human being can undertake. Some 3,000 years ago King David of Israel, on the joyous occasion of bringing the ark of God to Jerusalem, wrote a psalm of praise and instruction for his people. His words included: "Give to the Lord the glory due His name; bring an offering, and come before Him. Oh, worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness!" (1 Chronicles 16:29).

David gave this instruction because God alone embodies perfect holiness (Psalm 99:5, 9; Revelation 15:4). Part of the reason for our existence is to worship Him forever (Psalm 22:27; 86:9). The Bible reveals no future for people who refuse to honor their Creator. Indeed, He says that eventually "all flesh shall come to worship before Me" (Isaiah 66:23).

Jesus Christ adds that "true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24, emphasis added throughout). He warns that some will worship God in vain, because their practices are rooted in mankind's traditions and edicts rather than biblical truth. He labels such worship unacceptable and hypocritical, saying such people "draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me" (Matthew 15:7-9; Mark 7:6-9).

Given these biblical statements and instructions, does it matter which days we keep? Our world is filled with religious celebrations. Among the most popular are Christmas and Easter. Christmas is so popular that it is celebrated throughout the world and forms the basis for a significant portion of the worldwide economy. Many consider Easter to be just as important as Christmas.

But where did Christmas and Easter really come from? The Bible doesn't mention these festivals, yet they are an integral part of the Christian mainstream. Why are these celebrations so popular?

What does God think?

Most important, what does God say about such customs? Does He allow us to worship Him however and whenever we see fit? Does the Bible tell us whether God expects Christians to worship Him on specific days and at specific times? What can we learn from the example of Jesus Christ, in whose footsteps God expects us to follow? (1 John 2:6; 1 Corinthians 11:1).

In contrast to the popularly celebrated holidays, the Bible informs us of specific days of worship —God's annual "feasts" (Leviticus 23:1-2) —that are unknown to most people. How does one decide which to keep?

In the pages that follow, we will compare these observances with the instructions about worship found in the Bible.

These are crucial matters with far-reaching implications for our relationship with our Creator. Join us as we embark on a historical and biblical journey to discover the truth about holidays and Holy Days. The facts you will learn in this booklet will open up a much greater opportunity for true worship than you ever thought possible.

maybe i'm missing something, are you saying it's ok to practice pagan celebrations if we replace the pagan god with God/Yahweh ???
thanks again
dave

Dave - I'm saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with setting aside a day to remember and celebrate the greatest gift the world has ever known, the gift of Jesus Christ.

I also want to caution you with this line of posts. It is clear to me what direction you are taking and the background of your beliefs. I believe it is wise to challenge Christians with the way they celebrate but it is not Biblical to challenge the celebration itself.

It matters not what day we worship and it matters not whether we celebrate the birth of Jesus or His resurrection.

Colossians 2:16-17
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days — these are only the shadow of the things to come, but the reality is Christ!"

All the festivals in the Old Testament were a shadow of the things to come, the reality is found in Christ. Those who are in Christ have the freedom to worship Him day in and day out and also have great freedom with regard to celebration. My challenge has always been for us to examine EVERYTHING we do and ask if it is honoring to Christ. A set of rules will never make our actions honoring; rather, honor is determined by a heart fully devoted and overflowing with love.

steve, i was raised a cathloic and i am just looking for the truth.

i thought some good points ( from what i read, these are not my thoughts ) were made as far as nothing finding proof in the bible and was trying to find out if it is a holy day of/for God or a man made holy day.

i also was told if you can't prove it with the bible then it's not true, since the bible is the word of god and he does not lie.

This is a great thread.

I don't have much to contribute, except to say that we bake a cake, place a candle in it, decorate with balloons and sing Happy Birthday to Jesus every Christmas.

This, I swear is no lie...every year when we are finished singing, the candle goes out, without any of us blowing it out.

Praise God!!

Thanks Dave! I respect any honest questions. Please feel free to ask, but I would prefer you ask in your own words and not paste material from another booklet.

Christmas is definitely a man-made holiday. It is not found in the Bible, nor was it practised in the early church. However, we need to be clear that this by itself does not make the celebration wrong. If our heart is pure, choosing December 25th (or any other day of the year) as a day to remember and celebrate the birth of Christ can be a wonderful God-honoring time. I'm tempted to say a big HOWEVER and get on my soapbox about the two different holidays which happen to occur on December 25th but I will refrain...

fair enough steve.

i'm 47yrs old, like i said i was brought up in the catholic faith, made my communion in 2nd grade and confirmation in 4th grade. parents weren't church going people so i didn't attend.

in 1978 me a catholic girl while in the air force and started going to mass, learning from her and reading some.

drifted in and out of learning, etc. didn't really put much effort into it but believed that jesus died for my sins and i would be forgiven.

same thing for the last yr or so and still don't know what the lord has in mind for me on how to serve him/my purpose in life? i know god has a plan for each and everyone of us.

i know when i read the bible i should ask the holy spirit to give me wisdom to help me understand but i'm just not getting it(understanding what i read).

so i keep checking out different preachers and their interpertations of the bible. and i come up confused, so i came to you/this board to ask questions.

i really can't put in into my own words at the moment since i don't have that much understanding and or have not put as much effort as i should into looking for the answers myself.

i do know that jesus said that many will come in his name... and decive you.

so i guess my question is who should i believe and where should i start to find my answer.

once again i am not here to stir things up, i know sometimes it may seem that way but that is not my intention.

thanks again and i hope you can point me in the right direction.

dave

thanks for the input Brenda!
feel free to share you experiences with me.
thanks
dave

Dave - First, let me apologize for assuming you had an agenda of pushing a certain set of beliefs. Ever Christmas and Easter I get people who write and say that all such celebrations are wrong.

You are correct that there are many interpretations "out there" and it can be difficult to know which one is correct. In fact, this may be a good topic to start fresh.

The primary requirement is that one believes the Bible is the Word of God and is without error. This is critical, but does not by itself insure proper interpretation. Next we need to look for a consistently literal approach to interpretation taking into account the style of the writing and the background of the author and audience. This means we need to understand the context of what is written.

For example, you quoted John 4:23-24 where Jesus says that "true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth" saying that we must worship according to Biblical truth. The booklet you are reading uses this passage to say we must worship and celebrate according to the requirements set down in the Old Testament law. However, this misses the point to the passage in John 4. Jesus is talking with the Samaritan woman and she has just asked Him to clarify the teaching of where is the acceptable place to worship. The Samaritans had built a temple at Mount Garizim and this had become a major source of contention between the Samaritans and the Jews. Jesus replies:

John 4:21-24
Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You people worship what you do not know. We worship what we know, because salvation is from the Jews. But a time is coming — and now is here — when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such people to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and the people who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

In this context we see that Jesus is saying that the place of worship is not important. The truth He is speaking of is not truth defined by a set of rules but the true worship which comes from the heart. Hence, the particular days of celebration or worship and the particular way or style of our celebration and worship is not important. What IS important is the condition of our heart, that we are worshiping and giving all glory and honor to Jesus Christ as our risen Lord and Savior.

This gives you a flavor for what to look at with interpretation. Of course this is a very big area. I'd be glad to talk with you more if you wish.

no prob steve, maybe my timing was a little off, lol.

if you think of anything else feel free to email, would be interested in some material on cd, as i have alot to read now. i could listen on the way to work.

thanks again
dave

p.s
i'm sure you'll be hearing from me again, lol

I am embarassed how Christians have chosen to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have for the most part adopted secular pagan rituals to symbolize the birth if Christ and gradually have moved closer to the "happy holiday" theme so loved by unbelievers.

Yes, churches each year put on grander and more media centered stage shows to entertain the "unchurched". I wonder if Jesus were walking with us in life form today, would he have wanted his birth celebrated the way we do? From the Lord's teaching in the New Testament, I think not.

No amount on tinsel, icicle lights, or candy canes adorning our front yards will bring the day of Christmas to the holy day that Christ would have wanted for us in my opinion. Rather than throwing a party and gifting each other, rather we Christians should be reverently drawing nearer to Him, in prayer for the billions who live today without the saving knowledge of Him.

Celebrations are times when people laugh and mark a special time in their lives as a result of a noteworthy event. Our children's birthdays are such special occasions.

I don't see a laughing Jesus on Christmas or one where his birthday is called special. I see a Holy God lamenting our trite and utter useless symbolic behavior on the day we call Christmas. I see a large part of our business sector relying on the day of Christmas to keep their business operating at a profit. No, I believe the Christian world has chosen a rather pathetic way to celebrate the very birth of the Living God, Jesus Christ.

The questions posed by Dave, whether they were his original inquiries or not, raise valid issues worthy of thought and meditation. I am not a curmudgeon. My wife and children will receive Christmas gifts. However, my family does know how I feel about the celebration of Christmas and I suppose there is less partying in our home as a result of that.

Perhaps we can all really see the truth of the holiness of the birth of Christ if and when we adopt a lifestyle of Christmas love year around, abandoning the showy glitter of the 'happy holiday' the world so loves. Can we celebrate in the flesh what we should be doing in spirit and truth?

Nick P.

Amen Nick! I'll admit that this has become one of my least favorite times of the year. I have come to realize that there are two holidays during this time of year. One is a genuine Happy Holiday season and one is Christmas, the Birth of Christ. However, I have been having a difficult time enjoying either. I take part in many things which are Happy Holiday - such as the drive through light display we went to this evening - but I don't enjoy it because I see it as a degradation of the true meaning of Christmas. Then I don't even enjoy the celebration of Christmas because, as hard as I try to avoid it, I have compromised and failed to give Christ the reverence He deserves.

So what do we do? One solution seems to work well for about 99% of the "Christian" community and just ignore the problem - eat, drink, be merry and say Happy Birthday Jesus on December 25th. But I'm sure I'll never be able to return to that blissful state of ignorance.

Another option is to try to completely shut out all forms of Happy Holiday from our life. I've tried to do this and found it not only impossible but that it makes me a big grump. We celebrate less than most but there is still much in our life that looks like Happy Holiday. I've been pondering this a lot this year and I wonder if there is a third option.

I wonder what would happen if we changed the date of Christmas. Since December 25th is an assigned date, what would happen if we simply moved it to another date and separated the birth of Christ from the "Holiday" season. Even thinking about this makes us realize how powerful tradition has become - "You can't change the date of Christmas!" I'd like to think we could "simply" move the date to January 25th but I realize that would bring another set of problems. I guess I'll need to continue to ponder.

Father forgive us! We have wandered far from your path. Lead us back to the path of worshippers who worship You in Spirit and in truth.

Dave - Check out the audio at:
http://www.biblicaltraining.com/index.php

I've listened to much of the introductory material and have found it to be solid teaching. All the files are mp3 format and can be downloaded for free.

Besides the materialism I don't have a problem with Christmas - I try to live with Good will towards men & peace on earth every day of my life & I don't need a special occasion to give gifts to the people that I care about. To me Christmas is just another day (one that almost everyone else makes a big fuss about).

The thing that gets me the most upset about Christmas is that the nativity scene in front of my city hall is kinda not too prominent & has a big sign on it saying that it was funded by a private organization with no government ties. The scripture says that if we are ashamed of Christ then He will be ashamed of us at his comming; so it seems to me that there is little hope for my government.

O Lord our God, we want to honor You and the name of Y’shua (Jesus) in this season. Help us to have spiritual eyes to see how to celebrate, without the competing influences of time and things that would turn our face from giving You the rightful place in our hearts. Kindle a flame of passion within us to show others the light of Your love. Let that flame burn brightly in our hearts to be a light in the darkness and a hope for the world. Thank you, Father, that Y’shua came to bring redeeming grace. Help us to look to the horizon with hearts intent upon His return. Help us to arise to do Your will and shine til the dawning of that day. No words can express enough gratitude for the blessing of love and peace you bring to us. Amen.