Recently, I had a conversation with someone who has been in an abusive relationship. The subject of forgiveness came up and the phrase "forgive and forget" came up as a teaching that this person had heard a sermon on. Perhaps I was too quick with my response because I told them that it was true that when we become born again that God say's he will "remember our sin's no more" (Hebrews 10:17 and Jeremiah 31:33-34) But in our dealings with other each other that God wouldn't want us to stay in a place where we are being mistreated or harmed. This to me would show that we "remembered" what was done to us and we are trying to avoid being hurt again. True, the forgiveness can take place but we always remember the act that was done to us. Healing can take place and we may no longer feel the pain but it would seem wise to me remember what has happened to us.
Where I began to question myself was that I was led to Matthew Chapter 18 where Peter asked Jesus how many times should he forgive his brother???? Jesus responded with an answer that surely implies "Forgetfulness". 70 times 7 would seem (to imply to me), that we forgive the person and then keep allowing him to repeat the act and forgive as often as necessary. This to me, appears that we are to forget or at least have a short memory.
I look for ways to apply scripture to everyday life. In this particular case I have to offer an example. I have been a Corrections Officer (prison Guard) for over 18 years. I had an opportunity to know an inmate that had been convicted of child molesting. In prison he claimed to have been born again. I have seen many professing conversions in this line of work but most often it isn't uncommon to never see any fruit. I couldn't tell you how many times I have come across a seemingly sincere person and during a shakedown found the most horrible of things....sometimes placed inside their bibles. I have seen what appeared to be a true "brother" attempt to seduce another inmate into homosexual acts.
In this case, the inmate convicted of Child Molesting served his sentence and was released. He immediately went to one of the larger local churches in my area and attempted to get a position working with youth. This church had the resources to run a background check where his conviction was discovered. He was told that he COULD worship and attend there but that he couldn't be allowed to serve in an area that could have potential problems. He then went to a smaller church that didn't have the finances to check his background and was awarded a position working with children.
I believe the first church was right because I don't think any of us would want to have anyone convicted of this crime leading children. The forgiveness can take place but just how would the implied "forgetfulness" be shown in this case? Does anyone have an opinion on the "Forgive and Forget" phrase that is so easy to declare yet hard to do sometimes? Does anyone think that in our human lives that God would actully want us to forget an offense that has such severe repercussions and set ourselves up for repeated harm? I need some help understanding this. Just when I thought that I had this figured out, the Holy Spirit checked me on this issue.
I would welcome any and all help along with prayers for understanding this issue.

Ragman,
I do not have any answers; however, i have prayer.

Dear God,
I stand with Ragman in agreement for wisdom and understanding in the area of forgiviness and forgetfulness. Lord, we all struggle with this at some point in our lifes. There are no easy answer to somethings. But with your wisdom and guidance we can get the peace we need in this area. Lord, you said The wisdom that comes from heave is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit imparital and sincere (James 3:17). Father we are taking you at your word. Job asked Where then does wisom come from? Where does understanding dwell? It is hidden from the eyes of every living thing, concealed even from the birds of the air... God undstand the way to it and he alone know where it dwells (Job 28:20-21, 23). Father, we thank you right now for understanding and wisdom in this area.

For the foolishness of God is wiser thank man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strenght. I Corinthians 1:25

Where can wisdon be found? Where does understanding dwell? Man does not comprehend its worht; it cannot be found in the land of the living. It cannot be bouth with the finest gold, nor can its price be weighed in silver. Job 28:13,15

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all withouth finding fault, and it will be given to him. James 1:5

Praise God for his WISDOM and UNDESTANDING!

For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11

~Amazed By His Grace~
~Tanya~

Hello Ragman,

First of all, you have a very difficult job and I want to let you know that all too often, we take for granted the efforts of prison personnel who place themselves at risk. So, thank you for doing your job and staying with it so long.

As I thought about your question, I thought about the word "remember" and whether God actually meant it to mean obliterate from all memory or simply did He mean "no longer think on the sin" or some other meaning.

Then I thought about the Bible, and how God breathed it into existence through the minds of many writers. We know that God did not forget David's sin, nor Paul's, Peter's nor Adam's sin. Since we know that God did not "forget" their sins, He does not forget ours either.

We know, then that the words "I will remember no more" do not mean "forget". I looked up the word "remember" in Strongs Concordance. Here is the meaning for the word "remember" in Hebrews 10:17:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1064357274-8212.html

When God does not remember the sins forgiven us, He does not forget the sin, but chooses to not hold it against us. God is all knowing, all powerful, and can never "forget" anything.

Back to your question then, in the instance of dealing with someone who once committed molestation of a child, as God will never forget the man's sin, we are not called upon to either. Yes, we are to forgive the man of his act of sin, as the Lord has forgiven us. We cannot pretend the crime never occurred either, nor can the perpetrator. In fact, laws in many states mandate a person who commits molestation not have no contact with children of any kind in the future.

What of other instances of sin, such as murder, assault, fraud, or robbery. Would we place a person who was a convicted bank robber in charge of counting money in church? Could we forget someone killing a family member or loved one? Would the Lord forget their transgretions? Well, no, He would not. Every situation is different and calls for the exercise of wisdom in how we deal with the person after they have paid their debt to society.

As you walk by a cell of a prisoner who you know has committed a very violent and heinous crime, you are not called upon to forget they committed such a crime. If called upon, you may and should forgive them their sins, as the Lord has, but still do your job keeping him in prison until his sentence is over. You may also walk a wide path around his cell if he is grabbing for you, as your exercise of wisdom is calling you to do so.

Anyway, that is my opinion on the subject. Good question, Ragman.

I would like to thank you both for your time, prayer and help. The analogy of walking a wide path was very helpful and very insightful.
May God bless you both,
Ragman

God's forgiveness is ultimate, 100 %. He calls us to forgive as well. We can forgive unconditionally...however, the consequences to one's (the abuser's) actions is another matter. Loss of trust in a relationship is a big one. I think trust has to be earned and honored. We would be foolhardy to continual put ourselves in harm's way in the name of a misconstrued idea of forgiveness. Forgiveness comes from a heart of compassion, knowing what Christ has forgiven in our lives, we can forgive others...trust, on the other hand, comes from wisdom and understanding. God wants us to walk in wisdom. If we know someone has a sin in their life that is causing us harm, we would be foolish to subject ourselves, our children, or our future to that situation. We can have a heart of forgiveness and still remove our physical self from a harmful situation. The two are compatible. The person doing the abusing will have to deal with the consequences of their own actions...to allow them to continually abuse others is thwarting God's discipline and chastening. We can express love and forgiveness while still requiring saftely, respect and trust in a relationship.

Hi Ragman,

It is a good question, one that I have pondered myself. It is easy to say we need to forgive but how many of us truly forgive in God's forgiveness every time? When I was in awful relationships, I know that I could not stay and call myself a Christian and be a part of evil and that is what abuse is. So many abuse each others, with unloving behaviours as well as with fists and words; without even knowing they are being abusive.

What came to my mind that what I was not doing in my walk was rebuking. Jesus said we must forgive only after we rebuke and that person repents, if he sins again then it is repeated until he sins no more..."Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him" (Luke 17:3).

Look at what Christ did for Peter who denied him, he forgave him after Peter repented and he gave Peter his sheep to look after...that way Peter would have to Glorify and acknowledge the Lord every day of his life.

It also says that if you have something against your brother you are to go to him, if he denies this etc... you are to take two or three witnesses, if he still denies it, u r to go to the church and if he still won't repent then u r to deny him.

It is best to look at all elements of forgiveness in the bible and the process involved. Doing a bible study on the subject will help you. Here is an address for an article I read on abuse in relationships from a Christian perspective which u may find helpful...http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/Religion/bible.htm

Along with forgiveness there also needs to be restitution etc... Perhaps in this person's case his restitution is to minister to children. However why would he be alone with children, I thought when working with Children there are several adults on hand.

When looking at forgiveness and forgetting on a personal level I know that if I say I forgive in word, behave that I have in action and still the event is in my head and I still feel something towards the offence then I haven't truly forgiven. Forgiveness comes when God has forgiven, Grace is given and I no longer remember, the offence has been wiped away from my memory and I have no ill feelings left.

May God help everyone to forgive this Christmas in Jesus' name....Amen

love and blessings in the Lord,

Serenity

Aloha & God bless you - I have a problem with ppl relying on "man's sayings" as if they were the word of GOD - I never found "Forgive & forget" in the bible but ppl treat it as if it was - if you look at the scripture it says be wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove (or something like that) forgiveness is always a priority in christian behavior because Jesus said if we don't forgive others then GOD won't forgive us. However it also says "an heritic after the 3rd admonition reject" I have a practice of "loving ppl from accros the street" if there is an issue that is unresolveable then there should be a separatin to prevent further problems. On to the specific issue of the man released from jail seeking work at a youth church program - the advice previosly given to keep the man under supervision is a good one - also I believe in prayer - get the heads of your church together & pray about it & get the Lord's will on the matter - if you remember Joshua went to invade Ai without seeking God's will beforehand & was handed his 1st defeat, because he forgot that he was supposed to be relying on God's provision instead of the strength of his own army. The issue of the domestic problem was differnt - biblical council is the 1st step seeing as how GOD hates divorve - if the abuser is a nonbeliever & leaves the situation of his own freewill Paul said to let him or her go in 1 Cor 7:15.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Slade - I have a couple of messages posted in the Daily Message Forum on forgiveness which I think might help. These were posted back in March.

Ragman -

I would recommend the book "Total Forgiveness" by R. T. Kendell. It is exceptional and deals directly and scripturally with this issue. It is an easy read and I found it difficult to put down when reading. I hope this helps and blesses you.

Howard

If we are always to forgive, why then do the Tribulation Saints in Heaven ask Jesus when their deaths will be avenged? (Revelation 5). Jesus does not rebuke them but comforts them and says "in a while longer."
Are we only to forgive Christians? Also, how do we know repentance is genuine? Can't we expect some demonstration of repentence before forgiving someone?
In the case of a child molester or abusive spouse, doesn't the repentent sinner also need deliverance? Sin is very addictive. An alcoholic may be truly sorry he drinks but he is unable to stop. Others need to help.

Ardith:

I am including a commentary note from Barnes' Notes on Revelation 6:9-10 that addresses the saints in heaven.
(9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?)

Dost thou not judge and avenge our blood. That is, dost thou forbear to judge and avenge us; or dost thou delay to punish those who have persecuted and slain us. They do not speak as if they had any doubt that it would be done, nor as if they were actuated by a spirit of revenge; but as if it would be proper that there should be an expression of the Divine sense of the wrongs that had been done them. It is not right to desire vengeance or revenge; it is to desire that justice should be done, and that the government of God should be vindicated. The word "judge" here may either mean "judge us," in the sense of "vindicate us," or it may refer to their persecutors, meaning "judge them." The more probable sense is the latter: "How long dost thou forbear to execute judgment on our account on those that dwell on the earth?" The word avenge —ekdikew—means to do justice; to execute punishment. Barnes' Notes

This does not address the remainder of your questions, but hopefully it may help to put the saints in heaven question in a clearer context.

MTA

Also answering Ardith -
I think the saints in heaven bit may be just that - they are under a different dispensation while in heaven, while here on earth, Jesus told us to forgive 70x7 (I take that to mean every time) I mean 490 times? I don't think I can think of a man or woman or child that has sinned agaianst me 490 times. Perhaps in heaven they are totally justified (being in a different dispensation) in their motivation asking for vengence, or rather justice. As far as forgiving only christians, that cant be right, our forgiveness should not be dependant on the offenders repentance, but our salvation is dependant on our forgiveness. I am sure Jesus said if we forgive not others then our heavenly father will not forgive us. He didnt say, if we forgive those who does us wrong & then repent for it or anything like that... As I mentiond before I don't believe that forgiveness has much to do with a lack of memory but moreso a lack of us carrying a grudge wich is detrimental to our own heart, wasting energy that could be spent on the pursuit of a closer relationship weith God & causing stress that will provide us with an early grave, neither of those does our heavenly father want for us; he wants us to have a closer relationship with him & to have a decent life down here too. You raised a good point, in order for a sinner to be a stable part of any situation he or she must be deliverd.

Thaks for the response, Slade. I don't know all the answers, I just like to ask questions. I believe it is up to each of us as part of our walk with the Lord to delve into these tricky areas. If God didn't want us to think about it, He would have answered all our questions clearly in His Word.

I know it is good to forgive, and it always improves us to do so. Yet if we HAVE to forgive, that doesn't feel like it means as much as if I can choose to forgive or not to. For me, it is freeing to realize I have that choice. It is easier for me to forgive if I realize God DOES take vengeance on wrongdoers according to His perfect justice. Otherwise, why Tribulation at all? I just have to leave it up to God to decide the consequences each wrongdoer must suffer, instead of deciding to take vengeance on my own.

I look at it this way: we are all children of God. He is our perfect, loving and just Father. When your brother or sister sins against you, you should not punish them yourself, but go to the Father and let Him decide what to do. Otherwise, it is like we are trying to play God ourselves. There are times, however, when instead of praying "God forgive," I pray, "God, convict them in their hearts so they will see their wrongdoing and truly repent." I believe God accepts this prayer. It is often more honest than praying God forgive someone when in my heart I am still angry. I also pray for God to give me the ability to truly forgive. Some times this is more difficult than others, but God is good.

I also don't think we should truly "forget" in the literal sense. Look at all the sins recorded in the Bible! Samson, David, Saul, Peter, Judah, etcetera... We learn from the mistakes of others and ourselves. If we really forgot what we or others had done wrong, we could never grow!

Let me add one more time - yea you don't have to forgive, everything is a choice; God (normally) doesn't kick us into heaven; but allows us to make our own decisions. But it is stated (now for the 3rd time by me) in God's word that it is a simple cause & effect: If we forgive God forgives us; if we don't forgive, then God doesn't forgive us. Every decision we make has its conseqences.
And as far as someone who might pray "God punish that person" or something like that - just remember that there were probably ppl who prayed that about saul; but God chose to do something else; & thus was born Paul the apostle. The scripture says that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ez 18:32) and that God is not willing that any should perish (2 Pet 3:9) so because I personally want to be like David (a man after God's own heart) I try not to pray stuff like "God let that guy burn in hell" Paul said once "To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor 5:5) Now I am not quite sure what he was saying there but although it sounds like he is judging him one minute, it seems that he had his best interests at heart because he wanted to save his soul.
That reminds me of another issue, namely while trying to preach to ppl who don't want to accept the truth; some of my christian brothers tell me "Don't cast your pearls before swine" well my stance is that God didnt send me to judge who is swine (Mt 7:1); he did however tell me to "Preach the word, be instant in season, out of season" 2 Tim 4:2a
OK I didn't get your point earlier - you said that instead of praying "God forgive" you pray for God to convict the offender so that they may repent; that is very scriptural because it says bless those that curse you & thereby you put coals of fire on their head. I believe that those coals of fire is nothing more than the Holy Ghost convicting someone & luring them into a relationship with God. And I don't think you need to pray for God to forgive anyone anyway, because he already forgave everybody at the cross. Forgiveness is one of his attributes I am pretty sure, so just like we don't have to ask God to love us (or others) because it is part of his nature (not that we should take it for granted), neither do we have to ask for him to forgive (maybe I'm wrong I just rememberd 1 Jn 1:9, but that isn't saying to ask for forgiveness, but rather to acknoledge that we in fact, sinned) I guess what I want to say is that we dont have to ask god to be what he is, just thank him for being who he is.
As far as God answering our questions well I believe that the word of God has everything we need to know for salvation in it (Jn 20:30-31). As far as other issues, Rev 1:6 says that God made us Kings; and Prov 25:2 says that it is the honor of kings to search out a matter - so by all means enjoy your search for the truth!

Well hello Ragman! , and just how are you doing? on this blessed day of our Lord Jesus of course!

in reply to: "Forgive and Forget" phrase that is so easy to declare yet hard to do sometimes? Does anyone think that in our human lives that God would actully want us to forget an offense that has such severe repercussions and set ourselves up for repeated harm? I need some help understanding this. Just when I thought that I had this figured out, the Holy Spirit checked me on this issue.
I would welcome any and all help along with prayers for understanding this issue.

We will be getting back to you.

Aloha & God bless you. I already mentioned in this thread that I can't find "Forgive & forget" in the bible. God wants us to be wise like serpents & he doen't want us to be victims for repeadted attacks (God has not appointed us unto wrath). I have no clue what exactly you are dealing with so I can't give you any specific scriptures to help your individual situation.

Well hello Ragman
Member! , and how are you all doing? , of course after viewing you post, I also was thinking about the same situation, but only this had stayed with me every since I' ve been praying about what I had done years ago, but someelse that I know had done the same thing but worser,

Now the bible teaches in different areas, sin is sin, but it also teaches that there is a sin that is not unto death, but sir! , I would not wan't to be in, or to be put into any kind of judgement with anyone and for no reason,

So! , I would say to you, our Lord sees and hears, I would Forgive and Forget, but I would not forget where, if any situation will bring about an offense on my part.

Slade and Ardith
I think something needs to be clarified. When Yashua said to forgive your brother 70x7, he was referring to disputes between people close to you either physically (neighbors) or emotionally (relations) or spiritually (other believers), in order to keep things peaceful whenever possible. He was NOT referring to someone who beats you, murders your husband or molest's your child. those were capitol offenses then as well as now. There were specific protocols for those kinds of situations laid out in the Torah (first 5 books of the old testament). Yashua did NOT mean to accept those behaviors with forgiveness nor did He preach to forget them. What He did preach was to keep the peace whenever it was possible, to fogive your neighbor for knocking down your fence accidently (or anything else that was done even if YOU THINK it was malicious) rather than to start a "Hatfields and McCoys style feud out of it. KEEP THE PEACE was His message there, NOT forgive crimes against you (you aren't loving your neighbor as yourself if you kill him)
Yashua was talking civil disputes not criminal cases.
He even once told authorities to put Him to death if He had done anything worthy of the sentence so He obviously didn't disapprove of the death penalty when there was just cause. He just didn't want people to blow things out of proportion.
Also, one other point is, Yashua's blood washes us free of any sins we committed before accepting him but not any and all sin for all times - present and future sins MUST be repented of and NOT repeated for us to receive cleansing. Without repentance, there is no removal. The idea that you can accept Yashua and then go on sinning at will 'cause your sins will be covered is wrong (and probably an abomination as well). Any new sin that you commit (or old one that you repeat) can only be "erased" IF there is true repentance and no repetition.

Hope this helps.
Shalom
Kat

Kat,

First of all thank you for taking the time to contribute to this message board with obvious knowledge and insight to the Bible. My knowledge of the scripture has increased.

I respectfully disagree with your description of salvation and the ability to sell it once saved given that the individual was truly saved to begin with. (Refering to your post under topic "Can you sell your soul?") I do however want to know where in scripture you have found supporting being able to sell your salvation once saved and God's blood NOT washing away ALL our sins in the future once we have TRULY accepted Him as savior. I think the Bible is clear about not sinning because we somehow think that we do not have to repent anymore.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! (Romans 6:15)

Here are some scriptures that clarify God's position on sin and salvation:

14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesian 2:7-9)

By adding the ability for God's children to sell their salvation given that they are TRULY saved, goes against the fact that salvation is a "GIFT" from God not based on our works whether good or bad so that no one can boast.

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Paul seems to illude to the struggle of not being able to imediatly repent of all sin after he was saved. He talks of the evil and the sin inside him that at times take over.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. (Romans 7:14-21)

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I too have known some people who seemed to be dedicated and saved Christians and then seem to lead a life of evil. This may seem to us mere humans that they were once saved and they sold their salvation. However, since God is the only one who knows who is truly saved or not, the fact that someone "appeared to sell their salvation" can not be apart of our understanding of salvation.

Kat,

I just saw the scriptures you gave from the other topic concerning this same issue. I have just read them. Thanks for bringing this topic to the table again. I think the scripture is clear in NOT being able to sell or loose your salvation once you are truly saved.

Ummm I am not sure how we got here but here goes...Kat said that Jesus condoned the death penalty. I don't think that I have the authority to judge & or not forgive anyone who does a capitol crime. Mt 7:1 says Judge not lest ye be judged. The scripture says that God will recompense & I have to have faith that we are to leave all judgement to him, he told us however to pray for those that dispitefully use you & persecute you. Persecution unto death as in the case of Saul renamed Paul who was consenting unto the death of Steven the martyr was a capitol crime however God forgave him. God is able to save to the uttermost those that come to him. You mentioned that Jesus' atoning death on the cross doesnt save us from our future sins without our repentance. I know what the scripture says but I have to think that God can choose to have some mercy if he wanted; for instance the scripture says that if the righteous man turns from his righteousness he will surely die & his righteousness will not be remembered but if a faithful christian dies in a car accident & their last words are a nasty epithet can God forgive them for the last sin in their life without them repenting of it? The same question might be raised about Saul king before David. He saught a medium to bring him the spirit of Samuel & if you beleife like I do God allowed the bogus practice to work this one time & Samuel told Saul tomorrow you will be with me; now my question is does that mean in Abraham's bosom? Or in the grave? because a passage says that Saul fell on his own sword & nobody can repent of the sin of suacide yet there is the possibility that he was saved. There is that other passage that says is not Saul among the prophets? God knows what we have need of before we ask him. The bottom line is that if Jesus blood was not strong enough to wipe away all sins past present & future then he would be no savior of mine. Repentence is a very important issue but I heard a sermon that santification & Justification are an ongoing process for us to become conformed to the image of Christ, & beinmg renewed in the spirit of our mind & growing in grace. I don't know if a true chistian can ever sin because 1 Jn says if we abide in God we sinneth not, but it also says that if we say we have no sin we are liars & the truth is not in us. There is the issue of repentence but I have a hard time because it says Christ died once & he dieth no more. It says in Heb 6 that it is impossible for us to renew ourselves again unto repentace seeing as how we crucify the son of God afresh. One of the scriptures that I have been focusing on concerning justification is Gal 2:16 wich tells me that Jesus' faith in us moreso than our faith in him is what saves us; therefore like it should say in titus, not by works of righteousness wich we have done but by his mercy did he save us. Oh yea in another passage Jesus said who is your neighbor, he said the good samaritain who probably wasn't even from your town is the guy who is your neighborhe said something about the people who do his father's will were his bretheren. And that brings me to another point I wanted to make, there are only 2 types of people on the earth, those who have Jesus in their heart, & those who do not, (2 Cor 13:5 & 1 Jn 4:1-4) they are not male felmale bond nor free jew nor greek, human or alien or whatever, the black skins & the brown skins & the yellow skins & the redskins & the green skins it doesn't matter to God because he is not a respector of persons.

Perhaps I talk to much & say nothing, & perhaps I could have looked up more of those scriptures but I do my best to serve God & to pay attention to all the scriptures, not just my favorite ones.

Slade,
Ok, you wrote back to refute me on two different subjects and I have gotten confused as to which was which, so I'm answering most of both here. It kinda constitutes another of my rants so please forgive me and if it's too long to deal with at one time, feel free to do so any way that is comfortable for you. All stressed phrases (in capitals) in quoted scriptures are my own and all quoted scriptures are from the NKJV with the words 'Lord' and 'God' replaced with His name (YHVH) and the greek name of the savior replaced with his Hebrew name (Yashua).

regarding Mt 7:1 saying not to judge - that refers to judging the person's heart and that's not what I was talking about. IF there are two eye-witnesses, and it WASN'T an accidental death, YHVH says the law is to put them to death. period. no if's and's or but's. And that is NOT judging their hearts, it is responding to their actions and we are most certainly supposed to do so. In fact, according to YHVH's law, if someone accidently kills a member of your family, he is then to go to a city of refuge. There he can live out his life, HOWEVER, IF he ever leaves it, YOU are to "revenge" your family member by killing him!! Because by leaving the city of refuge, he is declaring that he doesn't repent the accident.

I understand what you mean about that last minute "sin" being covered by YHVH's grace, of COURSE He can do that, He even says "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.",

BUT, ANY TIME you sin and are aware of it, you MUST repent. And if you aren't sure if you've sinned but YHVH seems to be far from you, you might want to ask the Holy Spirit to guide you and intercede for you (which He can and will do as per Romans 8:27....see WAY below.)


Saul WAS a prophet of YHVH BUT, YHVH deserted him just as Saul deserted YHVH, WHY do you think YHVH had David annointed by Saul??? YHVH knew Saul wouldn't be a good king in the end (and he wasn't). Read
1 Samuel 13:13,14,
1 Samuel 15:26, 28,
1 Samuel 28 15-20 (Samuel's "ghost" tells Saul that Saul and his sons will be with Samuel, Samuel is in Sheol - the grave that he "arose" from -awaiting the judgement day along with all others who have died.)


And be careful when quoting from Galatians. It is the single most misunderstood and misquoted book of all the scriptures, even more than revelations (which is the hardest to understand in general). You must understand WHO was being written to, WHY they were being written to and then WHAT they were being written to ABOUT. In Galatians, the letter was written to gentile pagans who had converted to Judaism BUT, in their fervor, they based their conversion behaviors on the Quamran Essenes who were very strict and required that all men get circumcised BEFORE they even converted, then be baptized, then learn Torah and live the laws and then after a YEAR of living absolute Torah, they would be judged BY the Essene elders as to how well they were doing and if they weren't doing very well they were expelled. Woman only were allowed as servants or occasionly wives might be allowed in but it was iffy and they were never granted any status. Gentiles were not allowed in either, only Jews. Shaul (never renamed Paul, only called by the wrong name as are almost all people in the scriptures) was telling them that the correct "order" for conversion is 1. Faith, 2. Baptism 3.Learning Torah, 4.Commitment to live a Torah BASED lifestyle, and last, when the commitment was made, THEN 5.circumcision (but only when the man was "convicted" in his heart that it was the right thing to do). That is what the entire book of Galations is about.

Meanwhile, Yashua warns several times that only those who "endure to the end" will be saved.
(Matthew 7:21-23) Not everyone who says to Me,"Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name and done many wonders in Your name?" and then I will declare to them, "I never knew you, depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness (Torahlessness)!"

(Matthew 10:22) And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved."

(Matthew 12:30) He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

(Matthew 13:41-42) The Son of Man will send out His Angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness (Torahlessness), and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

(Matthew 13: 49-50) So it will be at the end of the age, the angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

(ok, that's the second time He said that which implies an extra emphasis -any time something that either YHVH or Yashua said more than once means that this is an IMPORTANT message)

(Matthew 15:9) And in VAIN they worship Me, teaching as doctrines te commandments of MEN. (this was part of a quotation from Isaiah 29:13)

(Matthew 19:17) So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is YHVH. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

(Matthew 20:16) So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN.

(Matthew 24:22) And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the ELECT'S sake those days will be shortened.

(Matthew 25:32,33,41,46) All nations will be gathered before Him and He will separate them one from another, as a shephard divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left...Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:"...And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

And all of that was JUST in the book of Matthew. Yashua obviously is warning that it IS possible to go away from Him. THAT is where there IS free will. YHVH is not going to force anyone into heaven.

in Mark, these statements are all repeated but there are a few others that also apply.

Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of YHV, you hold the tradition of men...

Mark 7:13 "making the word of YHVH of no effect through you tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

Mark 8:36-38 "For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."
Those are Yashua's OWN WORDS. Why would He say that if it wasn't possible to lose your salvation??? He also said:

Mark 9:43-48 "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.'
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--where 'Ther worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of YHVH with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire--where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' Again, why would Yashua say such things if it wasn't possible to lose your salvation?

and while YHVH DOES judge the hearts of men, innocence (lack of knowledge) is not an excuse. Jeremiah 2:35 states: "Yet you say, 'Because i am innocent, surely His anger shall turn from me.' Behold, I will plead My case against you, because you say, 'I have not sinned.'

Matthew 11:20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because THEY DID NOT REPENT.

Matthew 13:3 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." (Yashua's words and He repeated them in Mt 13:6)

Matthew 17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you saying, 'I repent.' you shall forgive him.

Acts 26:20 (Shaul speaking) "but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to YHVH, and do works befitting repentance."

Romans 2:4-10 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and long suffering, not knowing that the goodness of YHVH leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the rghteous judgment of YHVH, who "will render to each one according to his deeds":? eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


Regarding being removed from the book of life:

Exodus 32:33 And YHVH said to Moshe (Moses),"whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book."

Deuteronomy 29:20 "YHVH would not spare him; for then the anger of YHVH and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and YHVH would blot out his name from under heaven."

Psalm 69:28 (written by David) Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteousn