Hi everyone

i have quite a few muslim friends. They often speak to me about their religion, however after listening to what they have to say i still don't know who it is they serve.eg, we will say we serve Jesus and we will give our reasons for our beliefs etc. They seek merely to nullify the work of the cross and the deity of our Lord Jesus. So they'll make mention of things that they don't understand and use that as a basis to claim that the bible is either misleading people or is a lie.

Having said that, there are a few things that were mentioned to me and I'm hoping some of you may be able to give me clarity and understanding with regards to these things, so that my faith in our Lord can be built and reinforced.

They made mention of Jonah being in the belly of the beast, and that scriptures says, like Jonah was in the Belly of the beast for 3days and nights, so Jesus will be in the heart of the earth for 3days and nights...there argument is that Jonah was alive while in the beast, hence Jesus could not have died and was alive for the time that we say he was dead, thus also making the resurrection a myth. The 2nd is that they claim that Jesus was not in the tomb for the completed time, 3days...unfortunately i can't elaborate on this but perhaps that question has been put to one or more of you and may sounds familiar?

Also,On the first day God said let there be light... but the sun, moon and stars were only made on the 3rd day, where then did the light come from during the first day?

Also they seem to be confused about the trinity, how could 3 be in 1 they say?they simply don't understand it, is there a way that i could, in a biblical way and in simple english explain it to them?

then lastly, they interpret Jesus' words about the Holy Spirit as the coming of allah, ie, When Jesus said the He will send the comforter, they interpret that as being allahs coming...and that's also the reason why they say that Jesus was a prophet...according to them the saviour is yet to come.

Ive said alot and i hope that anyone of you brothers or sisters can help me find the answers to these questions.

Thanx and be blessed

HI,
I HAVE TIME TO GIVE A SUGGESTION TO ONLY ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS AT THIS TIME. I'LL OF COURSE COME BACK TO THE OTHERS LATER. I RECKON ITS JUST ONE OF THEM I DON'T QUITE UNDERSTAND THEREFORE WILL NOT PRESUME A RESPONSE FOR.

ABOUT JESUS BEING IN THE GRAVE FOR THREE DAYS. IN THE FIRST PLACE WE DO NOT PROOVE DEATH FROM THE GRAVE. MEN DIE BEFORE THEY ARE BURIED. COCERNING THE DEATH OF JESUS, ONE NEEDS NOT EVEN ARGUE THAT HE DIED. THE BIBLE ACCOUNT IS QUITE ELABORATE. 2NDLY IT WAS DURING THE TIME OF THE ROMAN CIILISATION, THEREFORE HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS ABOUND. 3RDLY IF HE DIDN'T DIE, WHAT A BIG HYPE THE WHOLE WORLD IS LIVING BECAUSE OUR DATING SYSTEM IS ALL ABOUT THE JESUS WHO DIED. 'ANNO DOMINI'(A.D. AFTER DEATH). NOW CONCERNING JONAH WE KNOW HE DIDN'T DIE IN THE BELLY OF THE WHALE, COS HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COME OUT. WHY; COS IT WAS IN THE BELLY WHERE HE PRAYED AND GOD ANSWERED AND COMMANDED THE FISH TO RELEASE HIM. AT LEAST I AM HAPPY THEY DON'T ARGUE ABOUT THAT. THAT MEANS THEY ACCEPT THE SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD.

I HOPE TO COME BACK TO YOU SOON BUT LET ME SAY THIS. DO YOUR BEST TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY, BUT LEAVE THE REST TO GOD . COS NO ONE CAN COME TO HIM UNLESS HIS SPIRIT DRAWS HIM. I AM NOT ACTUALLY IN THE SITUATION OF HAVING CONTACT WITH MOSEMS SO OBVIOUSLY I AM NOT AN AUTHOURITY, BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE DRAWING INFLUENCE IS EXCERCISED ON ALL MEN EQUALLY. WE MAY WIN A DEBATE INTELLECTUALLY AND FAIL TO WIN THEIR SOUL TO CHRIST. HE IS THE EXPERT IN THAT DOMAIN. HE KNOWS HOW TO GET ANY ONE'S KNESS BENT AND EVERY MOUTH READY AND EVERY HEART WILLING TO CONFESS HIS LORDSHIP.

I LEAVE YOU WITH THIS WORD:

MK 16.20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.[/B]

BE BLESSED.

" One of the first scriptures I give a muslim is Jn 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." So in effect Muhammed can't introduce anyone to the true Father. Also Jn 10:1,7 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep." So anyone claiming any other way to God is a theif & a robber (I wouldn't suggest giving that verse to a muslim untill he is thinking of converting as I don't believe that they suffer attacks towards Mohammed well). Now no muslim will admit that the bible is more accurate than the koran so it may seem to be a pointless discussion; however the scripture says in Isa 55:11 "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." also Rom 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." so I suggest that you give your muslim friends/aquaintences as many scriptures as they will tolerate & let God handle them - 1 Cor 5:13a "But them that are without God judgeth."

You said "I still don't know who it is they serve." - in my opinion it is a demon - I call him the moon guy because the moon is his symbol & the scripture tells me not to mention a false god's name Ex 23:13 "And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."

One of every other religion & christianity's differences is that we believe that salvation is a free gift (Rom 5:15-18) bought & paid for (1 Cor 6:20) by Jesus' death on the cross (Acts 20:28) - everyone else who has a hope in heaven, the new earth, nirvana or the sweet by & by thinks that we will get there based on our good deeds. Christianity teaches that we do good deeds out of gratitude for the salvation we already recieved wile we were still sinners (Rom 5:8) & as a byproduct of the new birth (Eph 2:10) & that they could never pay our entry fee into heaven (Tit:3:5). The reason that I agree with the "free gift" concept as the only way is because I don't believe that any amount of Good works that we do can undo the damage created by our bad ones, due to the domino or snowball effect.

This Jonah thing is cute but if you look at the scripture it says in Mt 12:39 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. the word "as" loos like it is refering to the "three days and three nights" clause moreso than the "in the whale's belly" clause & if you were eaten by a big fish/whale wouldnt you feel dead? (looks like a good picture of death/burial to me btw) Also the passage that they didn't mention is interesting - Lk 11:30 "For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation." - Jonah had just been eaten - he was a defeated man that stunk of fish guts & that is one of the stumbling blocks to muslims that Jesus is who He is - they can't understand how God could split Himself into 3 aspects or manifestations (they all have the same personality) or how one of them could be transformed into a human - let alone a suffering servant at that.

The timing issue I think stems from the fact that everyone uses the roman calendar & I bet any much if you look at it from the Hebrew perspective that a day starts at sunset the picture makes more sence.

You asked "where then did the light come from during the first day?" Jesus said in Jn 8:12 "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. I don't believe that Jesus was created because the scripture says in Jn 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." but I do believe the first words God said in genesis is "Let there be Jesus" Rev 21:23 "the Lamb is the light thereof.".

I personally don't call it the trinity but rather the tri-unity because the catholics made that word up & their definition of it has the word "mystery" in it. God described Himself to me so clearly that there is no mystery in my mind. the basic picture is "Just like how an egg has a shell, a white, & a yoke & it is all one unit; and like how water can turn from liquid, to solid, to gas & it is the same molecule - & just like how a human has a spirit & a mind & a body & yet those 3 parts form a complete person - so is God" but remember that unlike human spirit, mind & body have different wills all of God's parts have the same will. When Jesus said "not as I will, but as thou wilt. in Mt 26:39 it is answered in Rom 8:3 - "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh" Jesus' body added things to his will like the desire to eat & sleep; also the same drive for self-preservation that we have was present. Heb 4:15 "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.". Also, if you were to separate the 3 parts of God they all have the same level of power & when you combine them they don't have any more power - Jesus can raise from the dead, the Holy Spirit can raise from the dead & the Father can raise from the dead - now put them in the same room & they can't raise you any more from the dead!

A few of the scriptures that I use to describe the trinity are these:

1 Tim 3:16 "God was manifest in the flesh"

God calls himself Jesus in Zech 12:10 "and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced"

Try crossing Jn 1:3 & Col 1:16 wich say that Jesus is the creator over with Isa 44:24 wich says that the Father created everything alone.

Also in the Acts 5:3 it says that Ananias when he lied to the Holy Ghost he lied unto God.

2 Cor 3:17 says "Now the Lord is that Spirit"

One of my favorites is when you explain that the "almighty" "died" - read Rev 1:8 - it says that the same guy who is the alpha & omega & the beginning & the end is the almighty - now look at Rev 22:13 - it says that the same guy who is the alpha & the omega & the beginning & the end is also the first & the last - now watch this turn back to Rev 1:17,18 - this one says that the first & the last "was dead".

Jn 14:16,17 says "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.". Mohammed isn't abiding with us forever so he isn't fulfilling this scripture. Did you notice how it calls him the "Spirit of truth?" Well I know that muslims believe that they have the truth but may I ask you if a doctrine teaches that it is ok to hit a woman (your own wife no less!) sounds anywhere near the truth to you? The bible tells me "Husbands, love your wives" in Eph 5:25 & Col 3:19. And if they say that Mohammed is going to be "in you" well that just sounds creepy because Mohammed didn't claim to be the son of God he just claimed to be a prophet & the scripture tells me in Jer 17:5 "Cursed be the man that trusteth in man" & also Job 5:1 "to which of the saints wilt thou turn?" not to mention it also says in Rom 3:4 "let God be true, but every man a liar". Jn 16:13,14 says "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.. I never heard of Mohammed glorifying Jesus but rather as you said "They seek merely to nullify the work of the cross and the deity of our Lord Jesus." & I don't know if Mohammed talked about himself or not but almost everyone claiming to be Jesus does. Jesus said in Mt 24:23,24 "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.".

You said "to them the saviour is yet to come" & they are right but wrong in application because the savior who is yet to come is Jesus comming for the "second time" - Heb 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.".

One of the wierdest beliefs of a muslim that I heard is at the end of the world Jesus comes back for all the christians & that Mohammed comes back for all the muslims. Now that one just blows my mind.

God bless you & I am praying for you in your ministry towards muslims.

Also I heard the definition of "muslim" is "one who submits to God" - well by that definition I am a muslim. I hope you are too!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Hey Guys

Thanx very much for the words and word that you have given me. I really do appreciate it. It's a pity you guys are sleeping when I'm logged on and vice versa (I'm in Cape Town, SA), I certainly would be able to learn alot from you guys.

I'll be sure to read through and memorise the scriptures that have been mentioned. About a year ago Rick Joyner came to our congregation to deliver a prophesy that God had given him, in his sermon he said something that has always stuck with me..."humility is being teachable"...so again, i really do appreciate all your messages, not just for me but also for all the others that you've encouraged and strengthened in the faith.

God bless you and your families.

Regards
Travis

it's 8:36am here BTW

Anno Domini (Medieval Latin: In the year of (the/Our) Lord), abbreviated as AD or A.D., is a designation used to number years in the Julian and Gregorian calendars.

Because B.C. is an abbreviation for Before Christ, some people incorrectly conclude that A.D. must mean After Death, i.e., after the death of Jesus. If that were true, the thirty-three or so years of his life would not be in any era. - coutresy of wikipidia

& I thought we used the roman calendar - oops!

HI JUNIOR,

AS I PROMISED I WOULD BE BACK, SO I AM BACK TO ADD TO WHAT I LEFT FOR YOU BEFORE.
HAPPILY OUR BROTHER SLADE MADE SOME CONTRIBUTIONS WHICH WE HAVE TO BE GRATEFUL FOR. I KNOW THIS SITE IS NOT FOR PROMOTING SELF BUT FOR MUTUAL GROWTH. HOWEVER HIS POSITION INSTEAD OF DEBUNKING WHAT I WAS DRIVING AT RATHER HELPED THE CAUSE. THAT IS TO SAY IF WE ARE NOT LIVING IN THE AFTER DEATH DISPENSATION BUT WE ARE LIVING IN 'THE YEAR OF THE LORD', IT MAKES A GREATER CASE OF THE SOVEREIGNTY OF OUR LORD THAT "THE WHOLE EARTH SHOULD BE RECKONED AFTER HIM" HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!


THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD THOUGH WE NEED TO KNOW IS DIFFERENT FROM THE LIGHT OF THE SUN AND THE MOON. THIS IS THAT LIGHT WHICH THE APOSTLE PAUL EXPERIENCED ON THE WAY TO DAMASCUS IF YOU CAN AGREE. WE ALSO HAVE THE LIGHT OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST.
I WILL ASK YOU A QUESTION AND THE EFFORT TO DIG OUT AN ANSWER WILL PROBABLY BRING YOU CLOSE TO MY POSITION. DOES THE GARDEN OF EDEN STILL EXIST? BECAUSE GOD POSTED SOME SERAPHIMS WITH FLAMING SWORD TO GUARD THE GARDEN. OR WOULD THEY HAVE ALLOWED THE GARDEN TO DETERIORATE THROUGH NEGLIGENCE?

THE TRINITY IS LIKE A LIGHT: A LIGHT ALWAYS HAS THREE COMPONENTS IF YOU WILL. THE BULB, THE LIGHT THAT EMANATES FROM IT AND THEN THE HEAT WHICH IS GIVEN OFF.
FIRE HAS THE SAME THREE SIMILAR COMPONENTS. I WILL LEAVE YOU TO ATTEMPT THE LINKAGES BY YOURSELF. WHO DOES THE BULB REPRESENT, THE LIGHT AND THE HEAT. THE STRETCHING TO UNDERSTAND KNOWLEDGE GUARANTEES GROWTH.

Not that you asked me but I would like to give my opinion about the garden of eden.

I think that most likely at the time of the flood during Noah's time the garden of eden was placed under the ocean - perhaps it is still there, perhaps not. God can make all the submarines not see it or place it in a volcano. This also coincides with my opinion that the supercontinent split at the same time (thats why N. America & S. America look like it was tore off of Europe & Africa) - so the garden could have been located between the 2 sets & sunk during the split.

Actually I think that it is unimportant because the revelation says that there will be a New earth & a new heaven (Rev 21:1).

SIR I THINK I WILL BEG TO DIFFER ON THE IMPORTANCE BIT.
IF YOU RUN SCRIPTURE YOU WILL FIND SEVERAL SCRIPTURES REFERING TO MY POSITION; '' I WILL GIVE HIM TO EAT OF THE TREE OF LIFE''

WAS THE TREE TRANSPORTED TO ANOTHER PLACE?

THAT WILL DEFEAT THE PRINCIPLE OF PLANTING. SIR SOME THINGS DEFY CASUAL COMMENT. ONE NEEDS TO GO INTO THE DEPTS OF GOD TO BRING OUT HINTS TO THE ANSWER. BE BLESSED AS YOU GO DEEPER.


TO QUOTE YOU YOURSELF:

"The more you know, the more you should realize how much you have to learn"

There is a difference between the garden of eden & the tree of life.

Isa 11:10 calls Jesus the "root of Jesse" this is verified in Rom 15. Isa 11:1 & Jer 23:5 & 33:15 & Zech 3:8 calls Jesus the "branch" Jesus himself said in Jn 14:9 that he was the "life" so the tree of life most likely is a picture of Jesus.

I said I feel the location of the garden of eden is unimportant because of a biblical principle found in Jer 3:16 - it says "And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more."

In Rev 21:1 it says "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." & in 22:2 it says "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." so if this is a literal tree then eiter it was saved from from the first earth & transplanted into the new heaven or earth wherever the throne of God will be located at, or this will be a new tree of life.

To get an answer for your question we have to get it from the one who knows, namely God. He didn't see fit to put it in the scriptures or tell me or anyone else I know & that is another reason why I feel it's location is unimportant.

Jn 20:30-31 "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." - so I believe that everything we need to know is written in the bible.

I try not to make casual comments about the bible but normally have a scripture (or many) to back everything I say up. You are free to have a different opinion - I know I don't know everyting - all I know is that the word of God is always accurate & my interpretation thereof may not nessisarily be so.

I heard it said that the only stupid question is the one unasked - so if this question is important to you it is probably for a reason - if & when you find the answer please let us know.

AS JOSEPH SAID TO PHAROAH I FEEL LIKE SAYING THE SAME '' IT IS NOT IN ME''.

TIME IS A SCARCE COMMODITY FOR ME NOW BUT BY MY GOD I SHALL FIND SOME AND WALK YOU THROUGH THE ANSWER SIR.

''But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated''
James 3:17

making a STATEMENT OF DIVINE TRUTH DOESN'T REALLY HAVE TO DO WITH A LONG CIRCUIT.

LETS REJOICE IN HIM FOR HE HAS MADE US GLAD.

Hey everyone

thanx for the comments...I've found some answers to the questions I had.

my question was: "Also,On the first day God said let there be light... but the sun, moon and stars were only made on the 3rd day, where then did the light come from during the first day?"

The answer is : Rev 21:23 "The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp"

and also Rev 22:5 "There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. "

If God gives me answers to the other questions I'll be sure to let you guys know.

This is from the book of revelation, I won't worry to explain the context in which it was said, I'm sure you guys will have a look anyway

Keep well and be blessed everyone

GREAT JUNIOR!,

THIS IS WHERE I WAS LEADING YOU TO. TO S-T-R-E-T-C-H TO MAKE THE DISCOVERY. GOD IS RESIDENT IN EACH ONE OF US. AS TEACHERS WE CAN ONLY LEAD PEOPLE TO GROW NOT KEEP THEM BABIES FOREVER BY SPOONFEEDING THEM.

I AM AN APOSTOLIC TEACHER. I DON'T GIVE ANWERS TO PEOPLE, I LEAD THEM TO FIND ANSWERS--- BY STRETCHING. IF YOU KNOW ITS IN GOD , YOU WILL NEED TO STRETCH TO GET IT. WHAT DOES STRETCHING MEAN, YOU HAVE TO WANT IT BADLY; YOU MUST BE DESPERATE ENOUGH TO GET IT; YOU MUST NOT QUIT UNTIL YOU FIND IT. AND WHEN YOU DO IT CAN ONLY HAve been GOD. ONCE AGAIN BRAVO! HENCEFORTH KNOW THAT SINCE YOU HAVE ACCESS INTO THE GRACE OF GOD, RESPONSIBILITY IS LAID ON YOU TO TEACH OTHERS ALSO, NOT ONLY MUSLIMS. THERE ARE SO MANY IN THE BODY OF CHRIST THAT ARE STRANDED AND WHAT IS WORSE THEY HAVE NO CLUE WHERE THE DIVINE PATHS LIE. ARISE YOUR LIGHT HAS COME. NOT FOR YOU TO BECOME A BIG NAME, BUT TO BE A FAITHFUL SERVANT REMEMBERING THAT ONCE UPON A TIME YOU ALSO WERE IN THEIR SITUATION. SUCH MOTIVATION PLEASES OUR MASTER AND LORD. BE MIGHTILY BLESSED OF HIM.