I was recently studying with a friend and she and I have a very different understanding of where a person goes if they die before the Lord's return.

I had always believed that when a believer dies they go up to Paradise until the day of judgment then on to heaven and the mansion above, which is prepared for us to be with the Lord. When the Lord was on the cross, He said to the thief beside him "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise". Luke 23:43

My friend said that she believes the body remains in the grave until the Lord's return then we will all go up together to the great judgment and to be with the Lord. After Jesus raised for the grave He said "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ' I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" John 20:17

Where is Paradise? Was He in Paradise with the thief before He ascended? Is Paradise below as He had not yet ascended?

This is a bit confusing to me and any insight will be appreciated.

Thanks and may God richly bless you study and fellowship with Him.

In Him,
Faith

There are a few passages that talk about it but I am still unsure how it all works out. The best way to know is to die & then you could tell me if you had to wait some period of time before you were concious again or not.

I will go through the passages that deal with the issue & you are free to make your own conclusion - as I stated I have not made one yet.

Some people say that after you die you instantaneously wake up in the presence of God according to the scripture you brought up Lk 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. " & 1 Cor 5:6-8 "Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." - remember that the one in Luke doesn't nessisarily mean instanteanously according to 2 Pet 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. " .

Some people say that we have to wait untill the judgement before we recieve conciousness & it sounds like that according to these scriptures - Heb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " & 1 Thess 4:15-17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. "

Also taking into account the scripture that says "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. " 115 Ps 17 - of course if you look at Prov 21:16 "The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead. " Maybe the dead people in 115 Ps 17 are alive physically but dead spiritually.

Now lets look at Lazarus & the rich man in Lk 16 -

19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Now this passage is called a parable by some & not by others - the reason why I think it is not a parable is because I heard that parables don't have names. But depending how you look at this story could have changes in your ideas of the afterlife. In any case I will try to explain my thoughts; I think it is a true story but it didn't happen yet at the time Jesus told it - so at the time it was future-tense & the reason I think that is because Col 1:18 says "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. " . Now I know that my interpretation of "firstborn" in verse 15 has to do with priority rather than position ( "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. " Rom 9:13) because I believe it says he is the most important thing in all creation, not the first-created thing in all creation; but in verse 18 I interpret "firstborn of the dead" to mean that Jesus was the 1st concious dead person - I believe that Jesus paid the whole price for our sins on the cross & while he was dead he did go to the "lower parts of the earth" {Eph 4:9-10 "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) " } not to pay any penalty because he said "It is finished" (Jn 19:30) but to "to preach deliverance to the captives" (Lk 4:18) - there are people who after Jesus died & became the firstborn of the dead became concious & He went to Abraham's bosom to let them know that they will get to be with God & not in some holding room forever. Who knows I may be wrong, The story of Lazarus & the rich man could just be a parable & may have never happened & Jesus being the firstborn of the dead may moreso mean that he is the most important dead person rather than the first concious dead person; I just think it means both.

Now lets look at Rev 20 -

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now this looks like maybe there are "really righteous" Christians who fulfill a few prophesies namely "them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" (Who most people assume are the 144 thousand blood-decendants of Abraham listed in Rev 7:5-8 but now I am not so sure...) & then there are other christians who didn't fulfill these prophesies who are included with "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" who will regain conciousness later. See how these verses get forgotten about? Where does this fit in with "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" ?

I don't think the issue should be when we get to go to paradise but rather "Praise God! We are going to paradise!"

Jn 14:2-3 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. "

Well I hope this helps but like I said the timing of dead people's conciousness is an issue that I have no clue wich way it goes.

Oh I am sorry I forgot your question; you asked where is paradise - well looking at these scriptures:

1 Cor 15
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Jn 4:23 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. "

Then think about Heb 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. " (You can also look at Heb 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; Rom 8:34; Col 3:1; 1 Pet 3:21-22)

Then go back to the one I just gave you - Jn 14:2-3... Hmmm well it sounds to me that paradise is something spiritual - real but invisible to the eyes we have now - it could be occupying the same space but a different dimension or it could be in a totally different space but spirituality is a different plane of existance; Jesus said "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. " (Jn 15:19) so we are not of this world "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. " (1 Jn 2:15) Well look here "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: " (Phil 3:20) Now some people translate "conversation" as "citizenship" . Remember what Jesus said "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. " (Mt 4:17) - That means it's right here! Paradise is anywhere God is & if God is in you then guess what - you are paradise! Compare 1 Cor 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" . Paradise is a state of mind - Phil 4:11 "Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. " .

Slade,
Thank you for your insight on this subject and for taking time to respond to my question. I never viewed Paradise and God mansion as the same place either. This is something I will have to spend more time studying. May God richly bless your study and time with Him.
In Him, Faith.

quote:

Where is Paradise or Guns of Paradise?

I wouldn't hold my breath. I think it's just too obscure for Warner (or whoever owns it) to be able to make a significant profit off it. Just my guess.
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This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rocky59,

Hello Faith and how are you all? About you questions in reference to related scriptures, and exactly what was Jesus talking about Jesus himself making this statement to his disciples at that time in John 14:3.And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.) But could this same John which is the one that was on the island called Patomas posibly saw the paradise explained in Rev.21:1-27. From:

http://bible.cc/john/14-3.htm


http://studylight.org/desk/?l=...ion=kjv&oq=&sr=1%5B/


1. Where is Paradise? Let us take a closer look @ the context of this word Paradise, ok? From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise

Definition/From:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Paradise

2. Was He in Paradise with the thief before He ascended? Is Paradise below as He had not yet ascended? No, he was not in Paradise at that time before he ascened, because he was still alive talking to the thief on the tree/cross, wright?

http://users.belgacom.net/gc674645/heaven/heaven.htm

3. Is Paradise below as he had not yet ascended? No, because ascend means to an upward moton, wright? From: The apostle said he saw (quoate) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. but could this be that paradise you are asking about, did you read this whole chapter and its context? please reply, ok?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ascended

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Walter, Jr.,

That's why I said -

quote:

the one in Luke doesn't nessisarily mean instanteanously according to 2 Pet 3:8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. " .

Because I sm doubtful that Abraham's bosom (where I believe Christ went while he was dead) qualifies as paradise.