I would like to know what EXACTLY you think the New Covenant is - and EXACTLY with WHOM - preferably with details.

I don't have all the details but the gist of the matter has to do with Jesus Christ creating a new & living way (Heb 10:20) for us to get to God. When Jesus was teaching (most of the red letters in the bible) I beleive he was laying out the new covenant & that the current dispensation has been referred to in the scriptures as the times of the gentiles. Like I pointed out the scriptures in acts where the apostles came to an agreement that the gentiles didnt have to get circumsized but that they needed to abstain from fornication, idolatry, & things strangled & from drinking blood, also when Peter had that vision of the sheet with all manner of beasts on it & Jesus said arise & kill, Peter said not so lord; for nothing unclean has touched my lips, but Jesus said what I have cleansed call not thou common; & although that was taken to mean that we can preach to the Gentiles, I beleive that it also means that we are allowed to eat pork, for instance in this new dispensation.

The dispensation started when Jesus said that the apostles were to go not only to the jews but also to the gentiles, baptizing them in the name of the Father & of the Son & of the Holy Ghost. If you want any more details they are all there in the new testament like I said the scripture says that the law was our schoolmaster leading us to christ, but now that we have christ we are not under the schoolmaster (Gal 3:24-25). You see the one true church of Christ is also refered to as the bride of christ & so the covenant that God (Jesus) made was between himself & his church/bride (Eph 5:23-32) it is a marriage covenant just like his relatonship with the Jews but his relationship with the gentiles is all new as compared to his relationship with the Jews. As I said before I don't have all the answers but I know that there is a term called the times of the gentiles (Lk 21:24) & that a lot of bible preachers are calling that time now, the mysterious time between the first 69 weeks & the last week of Daniels' 70 weeks. Because the way I heard it is that the 1st 69 weeks of Daniel's 70 week prophecy has already come to pass but the last week is the great tribulation wich hasn't happened yet so untill it does happen we are in the dispensation called the times of the gentiles, basically a time where God focuses his energy on saving gentiles with the gospel before turning his attention back to the jews during the great tribulation.

The words of the new covenant aren't so black & white as the covenant of Moses for instacnce because The scripture said that the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life (2 Cor 3:6) & Jesus said that they that worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth (Jn 4:24). The scripturee says multiple times that the words of the old testament were good but the Jews took it the wrong way & taught for the commandments of God the doctrines of men (Mt 15:9).

The new covenant has to do with when Jesus died the veil to the temple was ripped from top to bottom (Mt 27:51); that means from God's end down to us so God broke down the middle wall of partition between us (Eph 2:14-15) so we can boldly have access (Rom 5:1-2) & come to the throne of grace (Heb 4:16) now (2 Cor 6:2), we don't need to wait to the day of atonement to go to the holy of holies & we don't even need a human high preist to do it for us either because Jesus is our high preist (Heb 2:17) & he is on the right hand of the father (1 Pet 3:22) constantly making intercession for us (Heb 7:25).

The new covenant has to do with God fulfilling prophecies like the one in Joel where it says that he will pour out his spirit upon all flesh there is another one in Amos 9:12 that says the heathen that are called by my name, so he is getting gentiles & blessing them with his spirit, a heretofore unknown thing in the ways that God related to man, if the spirit of God came to anyone it was a Jew before! Rom 3:2 says to them it was given the oracles of God & 9:4 says that to the jews pertain the adoption the glory & all kinds of important stuff, so for God to let a gentile do a miracle for instance would require a new covenant because such a thing is unheard of in the past.

One of the important parts of the new covenant is that Jesus died to abolish animal sacrifice - God hates human sacrifice you read over & over how abortion or making your children pass through the fire is an abomination, you also read in hebrews that it is not possible for the blood of bulls & goats to take away sins (Heb 10:4), you read in 40 Ps 6 that sacrifice & offering thou didst not require - the scripture teaches that when Jesus died for us that it is sufficeient to wash away the sins of the whole world & we don't need another sacrifice ever on top of or in addidtion to what Jesus did [ He is able to save them to the uttermost (Heb 7:25)] because he achieved justification sacntification & the juxtaposition of righteousness from God to man (2 Cor 5:21) with his atoneing death once & for all (Heb 10:10) abolishing the power of death (Heb 2:14) & redeeming us from the curse of the law as it is written cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree (Gal 3:13).

Also the new covenant was about being born again by the spirit of God (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15; Eph 2:10; Rom 12:1-2; Eph 4:24; Col 3:10)

I bet any much that there is heaps more to it & so if anyone else has any of the good points & issues about the new covenant between God and man given to us by Jesus; sometimes refered to as the times of the gentiles, please teach me.

What do you think Steve? Do you think there is a new dispensation/covenant in effect now or are we still under the covenants of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David & Solomon?

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Slade,
First of all, I want to thank you very much for replying...I'm not sure why no one else did but I'm glad that you did.

The American Heritage Dictionary defines Covenant thusly: A formal binding agreement: compact: contract.

YHVH would never enter into a contract with anyone without specifying WHAT that contract involved.

Example 1: Noah & co.
Genesis 9:11 "Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth."
He gave us the rainbow as a sign of that covenant.
He also had stated in vs 9,10 WHO He was making the covenant with "I establish MY COVENANT with you, and with your seed after you, and with every living creature that is with you: the birds, the cattle, and every beast of the earth with you, of all that go out of the ark, every beast of the earth.
no ambiguity there.

Example 2: Abram/Abraham
Genesis 17: 2-14
"And I will make My covnant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."
Then Abram fell on his face, and YHVH talked with him, saying:
"As for Me, behold, MY COVENANT is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, FOR AN EVERLASTING COVENANT, to be God to you and your descendants after you. Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
And God said to Abraham: "As for you, you shall keep My covenant,you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is My covenant whch you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every male child among you shall be circumcised; and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and you. He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised male child, who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

Again, no ambiguity.
Who, what, how, and how long....all answered.

Example 3: the "Old Covenant" or "Mosaic
Covenant" (this one is long...)

Exodus 6:2-8
And God spoke to Moses and said to him: "I am YHVH. I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El Shaddai (God Almighty), but by My name YHVH I was not known to them. I have also established MY COVENANT with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, in which they were strangers.
And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel whom the Egyptians keep in bondage, and I have remembered My covenant.
Therefore say to the children of Israel:
'I am YHVH; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm and with great judgments.
I will take you as My people, and I will be your God, Then you shall know that I am YHVH your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. And I will bring you into the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; and I will give it to you as a heritage: I am YHVH.
That answers who and what He will do, but what is Israel's part?
Exodus 19:4-6
"You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings abd brought you to Myself. Now therefore, IF YOU WILL INDEED OBEY MY VOICE AND KEEP MY COVENANT, THEN you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."
ok....any ambiguity is gone. No, wait....How long will He keep them a special nation? He doesn't give a time limit.....Hmmm....

well, He does give a time limit on when Shabbat shall be abolished (or changed) - Never! How often did He mention the Sabbath? well. Exodus 16:23, 25, 26, 29-30 Exodus 20:8-11, Exodus 31: 13-17
this is where we find out how long we are to keep 7th day Sabbath -
"Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am YHVH who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profaves it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to YHVH. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath throughout their generations as a PERPETUAL COVENANT. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days YHVH made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.'"
He also mentions it again in Leviticus 19:3 and Sabbath is listed as one of the 7 feasts to YHVH in Leviticus 23. In fact it's the first of the festivals to be listed Lev 23:3....

Ok enough of the so called "Mosaic Covenant".

What about the NEW COVENANT?? Would YHVH give us an ambiguous contract?? Of course not!! He set up the New Covenant in Jeremiah, and Shaul repeated it (with a serious, unexplained change which I will point out).

Jeremiah 31: 31-34
"Behold, the days are coming, says YHVH, when I will make a NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH (who)--nor according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, THOUGH I WAS A HUSBAND TO THEM, says YHVH.
But THIS is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH:
I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE IT ON THEIR HEARTS; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know YHVH,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says YHVH. For I will forgive their inequity, and their sin I will remember no more." (what)
THAT IS THE NEW COVENANT!!!!

Shaul repeates it in Hebrews 8:8-12 although someone altered it somewhere (Shaul was a Pharisee, he KNEW scripture EXTREMELY well, so he would have not made the change - it's either a scribe's error or a translation error. but here it is

Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold the days are coming, says YHVH, when I will make a new covenant with the house os Israel and with the house of Judah--not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt;

[because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says YHVH.]

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH:
I will put My laws in their mind and whrite them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know YHVH' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."

I braketed the line that starts the problem - it is, I believe, the basis for replacement theology that the church decided meant THEY became "Israel". Evidently by magic since there is NO indication of any such thing.

In fact, if you go back to Jeremiah, to the origin of the New Covenant, YHVH continues, telling us how long Israel will be His...
Jeremiah 31:35-37
Thus says the Lord, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea, and it's waves roar (YHVH of hosts is His name):
"IF those ordinances depart from before me, says the Lord, THEN the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever."
Thus says YHVH:
"IF heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done. says YHVH."

Doesn't sound like He's given up on them yet, since the sun, stars, moon and even tides are STILL following the so called laws of physics and show no sign of ceasing to do so.

There are two problems with the quote as given in Hebrews....one is the term "disregarded". It sounds like He no longer looks upon (ignores) them. But the word that was translated to disregarded SHOULD have been translated DISRESPECTED which of course means to lose respect for (but not ignore).
But it's a moot point since that's NOT what YHVH said anyway. For some reason the rest of the quote is mistranslated even though the part UP to the brackets was identical...very odd.

anyway, so....how do gentile believers partake in this new covenant when it's obviously with the house of Judah and the house of Israel??

Because we are grafted ON TO the tree of Israel, through Yashua. (first part of His salvation - we get to be included.)
Shaul explains this in Romans chapter 11.
Romans 11:29 specifies "For the gifts and the calling of YHVH are irrevocable." He understood that WE become PART of the House of Israel through Yashua, not that we REPLACE it.

This covenant is a marriage contract - a Ketuba - which is what Joseph and Mary were under at the time she concieved Yashua. They were betrothed (which is NOT the same as engaged) - a betrothal meant they were legally married, but had not yet CONSUMATED the marriage. In order to end the betrothal, Joseph would have had to get a "get" or bill of divorce. This is the stage we are at in the New Covenant. It won't be "fulfilled" until Yashua returns as the groom for His bride, takes us to the "mansions" in His father's house and consumates the covenant - everyone will know Him and His commandments. (part 2 of His salvation - we are betrothed to Him. We accept the ketuba [contract, covenant] when we drink the wine and eat of the bread).
Yashua even TELLS us that's what is going to happen - that He is going to His father's house to prepare a place for us. The bridal chamber is called "the little mansion" because it was usually a room in the father of the groom's house either added on or altered for the bride and groom. So when He returns, all will be fulfilled (consumated) and no one will need to teach or be taught.... When He stated on the cross that "it is finished" He was referring to His redemtion - His death in order to cancel the need for OUR death - so that He would be a "new man" and thus able to marry us in a NEW marriage (Deuteronomy 24:1-5 explains that a man may not remarry a woman he has divorced if she has been defiled - we through Israel and the changes the catholic church made are defiled with the pagan gods but Yashua died so that we COULD marry HIM).

last of all is Revelation 21:5 "Then He who sat on the throne said 'Behold I make all things NEW.'" (part 3 of His salvation - we now get to consumate the marriage and be with Him forever!!!)

How wonderful is that??
Baruch ha ba b'shem YHVH!

Shalom,
Kat

Shaul(Paul) also wrote: "'A new covenant.' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13.

Within 40 years of this epistle, the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed. Soon the Jews were dispersed throughout the various nations. The nation of Israel did not have a homeland again until the twentieth century -- 1900 years later!

For centuries, the Jews were persecuted, forbidden to practice their religion in many communities. Even in America, cities used to pass laws ("blue laws") forbidding businesses to operate on Sundays, thereby effectively putting Jews out of business, since they would not conduct business on the Sabbath.

If a Believer wanted to learn how to live under the Torah, it was nearly impossible, since Jewish synagogues were often closed down, and often Christians were not allowed to attend. Even if the Old Testament scriptures had been available in print, few could read until the sixteenth century. Many gentile languages were oral only. Even English was not a written language for a thousand years after Christ. How could God expect Christians to follow Torah?

Yet the Lord promised He would not give up on Israel, and He has not. No other nation has held such unity throughout such a long dispersion and re-founded their original homeland centuries later! It is truly a work of an almighty creator. The existence of Israel today is strong proof that there is a God and He does care about His people!

As for the Mosaic covenant, it is "obsolete," as Shaul said it was, as soon as Yeshua (Jesus) atoned for our sins on the cross. From that moment on, animal sacrifice was no longer needed or even received by God as atonement for sins. Christ Messiah is now our High Priest (Hebrews 9:11). If the old covenant were not obsolete, Jews could still find atonement for their sins by sacrificing animals and observing Torah rules.

The law of Moses was "a shadow of things to come"(Hebrews 10:1). In Christ, we were "circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Colossians 2:11-14.

Right after this statement, Shaul tells us "let no one judge you in food or drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance is of Christ." Colossians 2:16. We are to "seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth." Col. 3:1. Now, "there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all." Col. 3:10.

In the following two chapters of Colossians, Shaul goes on to further instruct the early church as to how a Christian should behave. The emphasis is on character, rather than on what festivals to celebrate or what foods to eat. Shaul is writing to Christians-- Believers in Yeshua as the Messiah. If we Christians were expected to follow the Mosic law, here is a perfect place for Shaul to say so, clearly. Yet instead he says not to concern ourselves with the old laws but to focus on exhibiting the character implanted in us by the Holy Spirit when we accepted Christ Messiah as Lord and Saviour. He reiterates this theology more emphatically in his epistle to Galatians.

We are under the New Covenant. He haswritten His laws on our hearts by indwelling us with His Holy Spirit . I may not always act like I know His laws because I still have free will, bad habits, and sin nature, and I live in a fallen world which constantly tempts me to disobey God. I no longer need a man to teach me His law. I KNOW it is wrong to steal, cheat, lie, and hate. I know because I feel the loss of my peace with God. I feel it when I grieve the Holy Spirit.

A friend of mine accepted Christ a few years ago. As a brand-new Believer, she hadn't yet changed all of her wrong behaviors. One day she took a pen home from work, something many people in the world do without a twinge of conscience. But this time, she felt terribly guilty about it! She even heard a voice in her head say "Put the pen back." She couldn't get the guilt off her mind and finally returned the pen. Amazingly, when she told me about the incident, she told me "the devil" told her to put back the pen.

"Why couldn't it have been God?" I asked.

"Because it was only a pen!" she replied.

I explained to her that God was speaking to her through the Holy Spirit to walk blameless because He wants her to be Holy. I know of others whom God has rebuked for littering, telling white lies, or speaking badly about another person even when no one (human) was listening! Since becoming a Christian I am more honest in my tax returns and obey the speed limits more than I ever did before. I even felt God lead me to throw out my astrology books before I even knew He tells us not to mess with astrology in the Bible. These are examples of how God has written His law on the believers' heart.

Yes, we are grafted into the people of Israel, but under a New Covenant. When we take communion we affirm this Covenant. True, we have yet to be with the Lord in the flesh, which will happen upon His return to earth. In Jewish tradition and law, a betrothal is as binding as a marriage. To break such a betrothal, you had to get divorced. God's covenant with us is in the betrothal stage. It will be consummated at the "marriage supper of the lamb" referred to in Revelation 19:9. In the meantime, we have His Promise that He WILL wed Him. We know we can trust His Promise. It is His Covenant.

That is, He will wed US, those who have entered into this new covenant with Him; Christians; Believers in Christ. The Church is the Bride of Christ.

You know I used to get similar ideas about theology (as Kat has) when I read the old testament as a baby christian but my human pastors explained some of what I am telling you to me & other things like that other passage that says we are not under the law but under grace. Newho I had done a little more bible study & meditation while I was out & so I wanted to complete my answer from before & I don't know why nobody else answered either but thanks ardith for helping, she answerd some of what I left out.

Continuing my answer to the question what exactly is the new covenant & who was it given to - OK let me clear something up that I neglected to mention; that is that parts of all the old covenants are just as true & binding as the day that they were written or spoken by God. For example whenever it rains we still see a rainbow based on God's promise to us in the Noahic covenant that God will not destroy the world by water. Parts of some were changed by subsequent covenants for example the Adamic covenant we were given dominion over the animals but in the Noahic covenant that dominion was placed on the back burner so to speak because the fear of man was put into the animals because God allowed man to eat the animals. Then more rules were added to the eating of animals during the Mosaic covenant because now we can eat some but not others and a few obscure rules like the one that says not to boil a kid in its mother's milk wich I heard Jews interpet means dont eat a cheeseburger because it has beef & dairy in the same item. I have full faith that it is ok to eat a cheeseburger now after God told peter to not call what he has cleansed common. (But only if God doesn't tell you not to personally) remember God can talk to one person & what he tells him have nothing to do with anyone else, once he told Ezekiel to lay around naked & to eat dung. Now someone can take that out of context & say that the old covenant wants us to do just that - well I dont think so but in Ezekiel's case if he didnt do what God told him to do it would have been sin. For the rest of us probably laying around naked & eating dung would be a sin but God can give you instructions different from any instructions he ever gave anyone else, look at Noah nobody even knew what rain was or ever saw a boat & if Noah didn't follow God's instructions that seemed weird to everyone else on the planet to him it would have been sin. Look at Hosea told to take a wife from the whoredoms, that was sin for everyone else & against God's word, but not to the man who's job it is to do it. So God's covenant is written as someone pointed out in our hearts moreso than on a piece of paper. OK I am getting sidetracked from what I really wanted to tell you, but before I go on, let me add that I don't believe that the gentiles replaced the jews in any way, I know the scriptures about how we are grafted into the house of Iseral & adopted into the family of Abraham.

The new covenant was instituted with one ritual taken from the old testament; namely "Anointing with oil" Also there are 2 new rituals "Laying on of hands" & "Baptism" There is also a ritual to be performed during one of the new covenant's holy days; namely the "Communion" or "Eucharist" wich is to take place (at least) once a year during passover, commemorating the last supper, & it should be a meal type of situation & not celebrated in the fashion that I see nowadays. The 2nd new covenant holy day is Ressurection sunday & although I am unsure if it always lands on easter sunday or even if it lands on sunday every year, but it is the same distance from passover every year & the jewish calendar is based on a lunar cycle & not a solar one like the calendar we use. The 3rd new covenant holy day is pentacost wich was 50 days after ressuerection sunday or his ascension. I don't know how it is celebrated now but I would think that it would be a day of solemn prayer for revival & the unleashing of the Holy Spirit.

3 more small points, the whole new testament is the new covenant that is why it is called the new testament as compared to the old testament. Also there is a point about the gospel being the new covenant, because if it was totally about the jews then the scripture wouldn't say that the jews are enemies for the gospels' sake. And the other passage in 1 Cor that says that the jews seek a sign but we preach christ crucified unto the jews a stumblingblock. And I may have neglected to stress who the contract of the new covenant was made with - The one true church of Christ, that's who! All the people in the earth who have Jesus in their heart, regadless of their denomination or any other distinction, these are they that the covenant is made with. That's why I can't stand a church that says if you don't belong to our church then you aren't going to heaven; because God talks to people all around the world, not only to you.

Kat, I want to answer your point that you said about how God doesn't go into ambiguos contracts - you are absolutely right - when God gets ahold of you, he will let you know exactly what he wants you to know about your duties & responsibilities to him, of what duration your relationship will be, and if you are lucky some of your rewards if you are faithful to keep your end of the bargain, not to mention some of the consequences of failure as well; the same as he let me know when he got ahold of me - But sometimes when God gets ahold of you he doesn't give you all the information at once - remember when he grabbed Saul renamed Paul, what happened? He told him "Go here & talk to this guy" And it wasn't untill he obeyed that part that he got some more of the equation.

I am not the pastor or a member of the board of this ministry or any other but the one that God gave me (Walk in Love, Live by Faith Ministries); I have had no formal training except one bible colledge course on the book of Romans from Calvary chapel bible colledge (I got an "A") God tought me (himself or used human pastors) everything I share with you, but I am not the boss of God's daily word ministries so I want to know what Steve or Shawn have to say; as they work here.

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Ardith and Slade,

The following quote seems to be the premise of all of your other comments:

"If the old covenant were not obsolete, Jews could still find atonement for their sins by sacrificing animals and observing Torah rules."

I'm searching ... Can you find for me scriptures in the OT saying the Jews would obtain salvation with sacrifices and observance of Torah?

Blessings,

Chelki

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They couldn't as James said "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" jas 2:23 - just as in this dispensation, during the last ones salvation was the same by grace through faith - habbakuk said it too the just shall live by his faith.

I don't know the premise for Ardith's statements but mine is comming from a culmination of years of bible study because like I wanted to say earlier, I gotta take the whole bible, not just the parts I like. Also as is the case with this study God teaches me things as I teach others; so some of what I have here I didn't even know until I wrote it down for you guys.

It just dawned on me that God's covenant that he writes in our heart is different from individual to individual, he customizes our covenant so to speak & the precedent for that is in the bible; every one that God had a covenant with he used different words: he didnt tell anyone precisely the same thing but he may have given them the same idea. Jesus said don't use dead repitition, God's word is alive & will come to every individual to meet them where they are at.

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Deuteronomy 30:15-21 sets out the requirement God gave the Jews:"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply..." It goes on. It is pretty clear that God expected the nation of Israel to follow the Torah. The context of this verse is that Moses has just spent the day reading the law to the people.

If you are asking where the scriptures speak of "salvation," as in eternal life with God, I don't know that this is clearly set out in the Old Testament.

In Ecclesiastes 12, Solomon states his belief that our spirit returns to God after death(12:7). From the context of this verse it is apparent that he thinks our relationship with God matters, for he writes, "Remember you Creator before the silver cord is loosed, or the golden bowl is broken...." (v.6). It is poetic and symbolic, but I think it is clearly implied that unless we seek God in life, we will be without God in death.

In general, the Torah isn't clear that those without righteousness before the Lord go somewhere different after death. I think this is why the Pharisees and Saduccees of Jesus' day argued over this. If anyone has more info on this, I'd love to see it.

I remembered a point about the new covenant that I wanted to throw in here: Just that like the Mosaic covenant had a miraculous execution of the unfaithful (Remember some guys tried to offer strange incense that the Lord didnt perscribe?) Well in Acts chapter 5 there is the same type of judgement used to confirm the new covenant.

Also I have one main reason why there has to be a new covenant that supercedes the Mosaic covenant: Namely that if we were under the Mosaic covenant then I would not be allowed to even learn the truth of God; let alone preach & teach it, because I am an illigitamate child & the fatherless (bastards) are not allowed into the congretgation. So if Jesus didn't nail the ordinance against me to his cross & redeem me from the curse of the law then I would not be able to tell you the glorious works of God today. I thank God for his new covenant & I praise him that I am a part of it; he chose to fulfill another scripture in my ears - the one that says he setteth the solitary in families, because he adopted me into his family. =)

Ardith and Slade,

Sorry, I did not mean to sound unfriendly. I appreciate your responses. I have searched the OT for God's means of salvation before Jesus' coming to earth to die, and the Scriptures seem to indicate to me that it is by His grace, coupled with man's faith in Him. (Not only like Abraham, but Noah, Enoch, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Daniel, Esther, Ruth, Isaiah, Jeremiah and so many more!) I have not found any scripture that indicates otherwise and wondered if you had. So, the Torah was for some other reason, yet still very important to God.

The original question Kat proposed was concerning the "new" covenant. One thing I am quite sure of is that God's overall covenant is a commitment to save all of those who will respond to Him in the proper way -- with a true faith. Then we will be His People, and He will be our God.

Blessings,

Chelki

Chelki, I dont think you sound the least bit unfriendly, you sound like my sibling in Christ (I don't know if you are male or female)

I think the torah has to do with God proving his love for us - most of those instructions were for health reasons, the sex laws were to prevent std's, the food laws were to prevent food poisoning (before refridgerators pork could kill you) & there was that other rule that paul mentions in the new testament - dont muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn - so God cares for animals too - or the humans who own them, (we wouldnt want our ox in such a bad mood because he was hungry to hurt someone) The sabbath was all about our health too because God didnt make our bodies to work 7 days a week so he said dont work on the sabbath (Didn't Jesus say that the sabbath was made for man, not the other way around?) So most of the torah was to prove that scripture in peter that says God cares for us.

By the way, I was taught that Paul is one of the most likely candidates to be the author of the book of hebrews, but that there is not enough evidence to back that up, so I say something like "the author of hebrews" or "possibly paul said in hebrews"...

I just wanted to say that I felt a bit discouraged, talking to Kat is like talking to a Jehovah's witness - I mean I did all this bible study, got all my point's together, made all my logical arguments, backed it all up with scripture, tried to present it in a clear fashion but the intended audience couldn't recieve it. Kat seems like she is still just as much a legalist as she was 2 weeks ago. So I say in my heart what was the point, why did I just waste my breath & valuable time? But then God told me that if I didn't do this study then I wouldn't know as much as I do about it, & would be less prepared to give an answer, a reason for the hope that lies within me. And also a friend who I shared my notes with said that he was able to get some benefit from my effort so I guess I can stop feeling useless.

Slade,

I agree with you that the Torah was written from a heart of love and is all about love. I know how you feel about feeling as though you have wasted your time and energy on someone who has not really listened. However, I would not discount that what words you have said that are truth can be received.

In Christianity there are many opposing viewpoints, but I think it is the desire of everyone on this board to know the truth. So even though it is sometimes hard (for me anyway) to maintain an open mind once I have come to a conclusion, I know there are things to be learned in exchanging thoughts on what we believe to be true.

Personally, I would not call Kat a legalist. She did back up her comments with scripture. A legalist is not someone who is or tries to be obedient to God's Word, but one who tries to conform to a strict code with the PURPOSE of justifying his salvation. This is not God's way because it leaves out grace. Legalism is a matter of the heart and this is why God asked the Israelites to obey and follow His instructions with a circumcised heart -- so hopefully their obedience would not turn into legalism. All too often, they failed to even obey! In my opinion (and it seems yours too) God's Torah was not given to them for their salvation, but to help them draw near to Him, give them revelation of their coming Deliverer and help them to live their life with wisdom.

Blessings,

Chelki

I was concerned for her & she sounded like a legalist to me because she said something about new testament gentile chritians participating in Yom Kippur wich if I am not mistaken is the day of atonement wich one goat gets killed & the other (The scape goat) gets let free the one day a year that the high preist could go into the holy of holies (with a rope tied around his ankle in case he died they could drag him out) & make sacrifices for the peoples' sins. As I said earlier in my speil, we don't have to wait for the day of atonement to go to the holy of holies because when jesus died the templke veil was rent from top to bottom. I thought a legalist is someone who puts too much emphasis on the obedience of unnessisary old testament rules contained in the law of moses. I know some of those laws are just as good for us now as the day they were written but for instance the one about tattoos - is that one a nessisary law for today? Is God going to not talk to you because you got a tattoo? I don't think so, even tho there is an old testament law that says make no cuttings in your flesh & that could mean dont get a tattoo I dont think God cares about that kind of manini (small) stuff today.

My new preaching goes like this: Just like how the devil is like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour, God is also wandering around the earth seeking something, but he is like a merchant, seeking someone to make a deal (covenant) with. God is a covenant makeing God & he is waiting to find someone who will take the time to listen & talk to him & make a deal - doesn't matter what it is, it could be make a boat like Noah, could be set some slaves free like Moses, it could be anything but God is in the covenant makeing business. So like it says in the psalm 95,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

There is a point I would like to bring up - Isa 30:15 - "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not" If you remember I think it was Elijah who had to watch the lightning , the storm, the earthquake, the thunderings go by but when God talked to him he used a still, small voice. We have to calm down & be at inner peace, we can't get distracted by Janet jackson's nipple slip, or whatever they are talking about on tv, & we can't be so busy in our own minds so as to not hear God when he talks to us. I mean Moses was so busy in his own head that God had to set a bush on fire just to get his attention so he could talk to him! I heard prayer is a 2 way conversation - so take the time to listen to God sometimes.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Brad,

I can see that you have a heart for the Lord! I would just appeal to you to keep studying and learning the Word of God. I learn something new almost every day, though it may be insignificant, it brings joy to my heart that there is still so much more! I loved your quote of Psalm 95 and Isaiah 30:15.

I believe that every commandment God gave was for a reason and each commandment says something of His character, even if we do not understand. If legalism is obeying certain rules that others do not think are valid anymore -– who is to decide what to obey? I think you would agree that it is God and what He has shown us in His Word.

Consider the story of Naaman – what a simple thing he was asked to do, but almost missed being healed!

Blessings,

Chelki

Who's Brad?

If I am lucky then I will copy you & learn something every day & if I am really lucky it will be some truth of God from his word. If I am more lucky I will be able to share it with someone else & if I am even more lucky I will be able to apply it to my own life.

Wich reminds me, I don't beleive in luck, I believe in the sovernty of God - if I ever do say "good luck" I mean God bless you. (I know the passage in Eccl 9:11 that sas "Time and chance happeneth to them all", but I focus on the ones that say stuff like "Declaring the end from the beginning" Isa 46:10)

I aggree with you that God will tell us what rules we need to obey; As Ardith said "He has written His laws on our hearts by indwelling us with His Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22) ... I no longer need a man to teach me (1 Jn 2:27) His law. I KNOW it is wrong to steal, cheat, lie, and hate. I know because I feel the loss of my peace with God. I feel it when I grieve the Holy Spirit."

I looked up that passage & that was a heavy one - the guy had a sour attitude but his servant convinced him to humble himself. That part reminds me a little of the time the Egyptian asked to get baptized in acts, The part that hit me hard was when Elisha's right hand man got greedy & got Naaman's leprosy that part reminds me of the passage in 1 Cor 9:18 that says "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Slade,

I'm sorry for calling you the wrong name – I wrote that in haste, but I'm glad you knew it was for you.

Your statement about needing no man to teach you is a little bothersome to me. And that is why I have not said much about what I believe the new covenant to be, because there is a part of it that I do not understand – and that is the part that says we no longer need to teach our neighbor the Lord, because everyone will know Him. You have tied the 1 John passage to that, which deals with the anti-Christ spirit, which John says is already in the world at the time of this writing.

1 John 2:27-29

27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him. 28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

I do believe that we have an anointing, but I think we need to be careful saying we can avoid another man's teaching (unless of course, it does not agree with the scripture). What about the scripture that says there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors? or How can a man learn, except someone teach him?

The same is true for what we have heard from the Holy Spirit. If it does not agree with the scripture, then it must not have been from the right spirit. That is the reason I concentrate upon the Word, so when the Holy Spirit does nudge me and teach me, I can be sure that it is from Him.

Do you or anyone have an explanation for this:

LXE Jeremiah 31:33 For this is my covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put my laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. 34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.

Blessings,

Chelki

Well just like the other one in 1st John can be taken out of context & blow your theology out of wack - 1 Jn 5:19 "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness." so too can 1 Jn 2:27 - we gotta take the whole scripture, not just our favorite parts - God appoints teachers 2 Tim 1:11 "Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles." 1 Cor 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." 1 Cor 12:7-11 "7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will." (Why would there be a word of knoledge & a word of wisdom gifts if we weren't to tell someone?) Rom 10:13-14 "13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

I believe that there has to be a balance - God can speak to us through nature Rom 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" and he can speak to us directly 1 Sam 3:4 "That the LORD called Samuel: and he answered, Here am I." and he can use human teachers Acts 8:30-35 "30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. 32The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: 33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. 34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? 35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus."

Paul claimed to not have been taught the Gospel by man Gal 1:11--19 "11But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. 13For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. 15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother." 1 Cor 2:4-5 "4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." Peter said "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." 2 Pet 1:16

I always focus on 1 Jn 2:27 because I am scared to blindly follow a man; Jesus said in Mt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Hos 4:6 says "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge" so when someone tells me something I copy the folks from Berea because Acts 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." they were good examples & Jesus said "Search the scriptures" Jn 5:39.

That ties into what you said "If it does not agree with the scripture, then it must not have been from the right spirit" & Isa 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." also Jn 10:1-5 "1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers" And Jn 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." wich also says that the Holy spirit will teach you all things, but also it will be confirmed by something you remember that is in the scripture, & unless your memory is as bad as mine (lol) you can look it up because "the scripture cannot be broken" Jn 10:35 so it's not going to change over time unless you are reading different versions.

Jesus told the Pharasees in Jn 9:39 "If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth." I think he was refering to the amount of biblical truth they had & therefore responsibility to uphold that truth. 1 Cor 9:14 "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." David said it was his job to teach - 40 Ps 9-10 "9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest. 10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation."

1 Cor 8:2 "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." 1 Cor 3:18 "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise." So it is our duty to humble ourselves & learn especially because Prov 1:7 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge" Not everyone needs a human teacher; but everyone needs to be taught. I believe that for that passage you brought up to be (fully) fulfilled it would be in the new heaven or the new earth or at least during the millenial reign of Jesus Christ because it promises that God will be here with man & he is so big that we will all have a front row seat. I believe that there will be a time when we all will be face to face with God, when that time comes "they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me"

Thanks Slade,

I see why you have said what you have, and I quite agree. It seems to me also that the second half of the prophecy can only be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom too or as you say with the new heaven and earth. Thank you for answering.

Blessings,

Chelki

Slade,

This is specifically for you because of several comments you have made about me and my faith. First of all, I'd like you to understand several things. I find EXTREMELY offensive that "I used to get similar ideas about theology (as Kat has) when I read the old testament as a baby christian but my human pastors explained some of what I am telling you to me & other things like that other passage that says we are not under the law but under grace."

I am NO baby christian, I have been a believer ALL my life and have had an extremely close walk with YHVH for the last 8 years.

Second, in one of your other letters you stated that you wanted scripture backup because you believe scripture more than you believe me (THAT was smart) but then in THIS letter you say that "my HUMAN pastors" taught you the error of scriptural teaching? I have a real problem with ANY human teaching something that goes against YHVH's word being thought MORE RELIABLE than YHVH's word itself. That was what the Pharisee's of Yashua's day were doing and that is EXACTLY what He was chastizing them for - because they believed the word of the talmud (rabbinic teachings ON the old testament written by Pharisees) over the Torah. IF you'd ever read the mishna portion of the talmud, you'd see why believing THAT is ridiculous, and yet many Jews today know no better because THEIR Rabbis (human pastors) are still teaching it as fact.

Now, regarding the New Covenant. There is ONLY ONE new covenant. I quoted it before and see no reason to do so again, but it is NOT with the "gentile christian church", it IS with the House of Judah (Jews) and the House of Israel (the ten tribes of the diaspora). WE are grafted ONTO the olive tree of Israel IF WE believe in Yashua's salvation.

That is YHVH's special grace because otherwise we have NO inclusion. In the old testament, when the land was being divided between the 11 tribes (the twelfth was the Levites who received no land other than a few cities, but who received their needs not by farming but by the tithes of the other tribes for their service to the temple) YHVH told them "You shall divide it by lot for an inheritance among yourselves, and AMONG THE ALIENS who stay in your midst (YHVH-fearing Gentiles), who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you AS the native-born among the sons of Israel; they shall be allotted an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel." He also said "As for the assembly(all Israel), there shall be one statute for you AND for the alien (YHVH-fearing Gentile) who sojourns with you, a PERPETUAL STATUTE throughout you generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before YHVH."

In order to celebrate the Pesach (passover) however, YHVH did specify "And when a stranger shall sojourn with you, and will keep the Pesach to YHVH, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof." Does that mean we still need to be circumcised? I think so, although I may well be wrong since some of the new testament teachings seem to say it's not necessary. On the other hand, it DOES say in Ezekiel that anyone coming into the temple in New Jerusalem MUST be circumcised in heart AND flesh. "no foreigner (alien, gentile) uncircumcised in heart OR uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel". So, I guess it depends on if you you want to be able to enter the temple or not. It's a moot question for me since I'm not a man.

Anyway, in other words, even back then, non-blood Israel was to be included BUT they had to be believers, they had to obey the same statutes, they had to have the same instruction on YHVH's word - NOT A WHOLE DIFFERENT SET OF RULES!!!

OK, but that's "OLD TESTAMENT". Guess what! Throughout the "new testament", EVERY REFERENCE TO SCRIPTURES REFERRED TO THE OLD TESTAMENT!!!
There WAS NO new testament until almost a full generation AFTER the apostles!

2 Timothy 3:14-17 "But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make you WISE FOR SALVATION THROUGH FAITH which is in Messiah Yashua. All Scripture is given by inspiration of YHVH and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of YHVH may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." WHY would Shaul say that all Scripture (Torah, Prophets and Writings - ie. the old testament) is profitable for doctrine and instruction if it's null and void??? How can it be both???? It can't. It can only be STILL VALID FOR DOCTRINE, INSTRUCTION, CORRECTION AND REPROOF. And that was what it ALWAYS WAS FOR.

In Titus 1:13-16 Shaul says "This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables (Mishna portion of Talmud) and commandments of men (Rabbis) who turn from the truth. To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know YHVH, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of YHVH that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Yashua Messiah, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless (Torah-less)deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in YHVH should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

YHVH stated with NO ifs, ands, or buts, that He is YHVH and He does NOT change. Why then would He completely alter EVERYTHING from the "law" for the Gentiles, when He didn't do that in the "old testament" for the Gentile believers?

What kind of God is He if He can't be counted on to be consistant?? I don't think I'd want THAT kind of god, one who changes the rules just because a few new people decide to believe in him but don't want to follow the same rules as his first believers have to....

What about Yashua, doesn't He fulfill the prophesies??
If He does, then YHVH kept His word.

If He is our salvation, then YHVH kept His word.

YHVH always keeps His word. IF He does, and if He doesn't change (by His own declaration) then how could His word be changed? Did He give someone permission to change His laws? I don't recall ever reading that ANYWHERE in the scriptures.

Yashua kept ALL the Torah, and did so perfectly.
He said "DO NOT THINK that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets, I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, one Yod (smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet) or one tittle (decorative spur added onto letters) WILL BY NO MEANS PASS FROM THE LAW till ALL is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, AND TEACHES MEN SO, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever DOES AND TEACHES THEM, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

This is YHVH's own son, who is ONE WITH YHVH, wouldn't HE know???? Why would such information be given to only one apostle, a number of years later, but not to Yashua? When He told his apostles to "go and make disciples of all the nations...teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;", wouldn't He have mentioned something about "oh and all things are changed as of now, the law is void, you can have all new festivals (celebrating my birthday and resurrection day and anything else you feel like, but be sure to call them worshiping My Father or He might feel left out), and changing anything else which is inconvenient - either because it is too "jewish" or because it's uncomfortable"??
Wouldn't He have known all about this?? But He said that nothing would be taken from the Law until ALL is fulfilled. Is it?? Do we still need teachers to learn Scripture? Do we still need to be told how to live our lives?? (Boy, I sure do and I don't happen to know anyone who is so righteous that they don't ever need any instruction and/or correction.)
So then WHY would YHVH suddenly change ALL of his living instructions (Law - the word Torah really means instructions and includes His laws and statutes as well as simpler rules for day to day life)?? That's not very consistant!

Moses said "You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you TAKE AWAY from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHVH your God which I command you". and yet, the Pharisees ADDED TO it constantly, and the "church", "christianity", "body of believers" have TAKEN AWAY from it equally constantly.

One adds restrictions (which really become oppressive burdens) and the other takes away all instructions that they don't like, often substituting their own - several christian churches forbid things like music, dancing, cards, smoking, drinking ANY alcohol, watching tv or movies (ok, I think that tv and movies ARE going way too far and should be watched with caution, but to forbid them?? ON WHAT BASIS?) Talk about LEGALISM!! I was talking to some people on the 4th of July and they were incensed that there was a church raising money by selling fireworks. WHY?? There is nothing evil inherent in fireworks. They're not forbidden....so what difference does it make? These are MEN's laws and ideas, not YHVH's.

YHVH says that in the New Covenant, He will write His laws on our hearts.
YVHV won't write them on our hearts until they are first registered in our minds. As we study and learn YHVH's instructions, they will be written in our hearts. YHVH doesn't teach us NEW things until we are obedient to what He has already taught us. Why should He? If we won't listen to and obey the first instruction, WHY would we listen to or obey a more detailed instruction?

There are BIG differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

The first was written in stone - it was agreed to by all Israel when Moses presented it to them. It took effect immediately. (and Israel basically broke it immediately as well, but YHVH gave them many MANY second chances). The people who DID keep it, did so because of fear of YVHV (they saw many people who refused to keep it perish in front of their very eyes)much as a child obeys his parents because of fear of punishment.

The New Covenant is to be written on our hearts - we agree to it when we "take communion" with understanding of what we're doing. It won't take effect completely until Yashua returns for us (consumating the marriage - and don't be vulger, I'm not talking sex even if that is what it means in earthly marriage). We keep OUR part in the Covenant when we hear and do His word, which we do because it is expected that we will do His Will as we learn it (as an older child obeys because he has learned the rules and understands that it is expected of him). This is YHVH giving us hearts of flesh so that we CAN do His Will. Then when Yashua DOES return, we will be ready, knowing the Word in all senses because it will be truely written on our hearts in such a way that we will never EVER deviate from it again.
At that time WE will also be completed - completely mature in our faith, completely filled with the knowledge of YHVH and Yashua, completely obedient to YHVH, and the Word of YHVH will be fulfilled in all ways. Until then we must keep learning, keep reading and studying.

Ezekiel 11:17-21 Therefore say, 'Thus says YHVH Elohanu (the Lord God): "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel. And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. Then I will give them ONE HEART, and I will put a NEW SPIRIT within them, and take the STONY HEART out of their flesh, and give them a HEART OF FLESH, THAT they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their Elohim. But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their DETESTABLE THINGS, and their ABOMINATIONS, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads." says YHVH Elohanu.


Now, for a couple things that you specifiacally said again....you mentioned tatoos.... Just because they're very popular now, doesn't mean that they're OK with YHVH now. We are to be set apart from what is "popular", not because it's popular but because YHVH SPECIFIED NO TATOOS. He also specified NO WITCHCRAFT of any kind (including palm readers, mediums, or "familiar spirits" such as the "spirit guides" that new-agers love so much). Homosexuality was also an abomination. NOTE I said homosexualITY - in other words, the sexual act as opposed to the person who happens to be homosexual. In other words, it's the ACT, NOT the person that is the abomination.

The food laws weren't about food going bad (no refrigeration). It was (and IS) about animals being unclean because of what THEY eat. Swine eat disgusting things, and most of the animals listed as unclean are scavengers. Same with the birds, fish and sea food. They eat carrion which we aren't supposed to even TOUCH, let alone injest. Ducks are one of the few "carnivores" that we're allowed to eat and the reason we can is because what they eat are basically fish with fins and scales, which WE are also allowed to eat.

The "No cheeseburger" law is RABBINIC (Phariseeic) law, NOT TORAH!!! YHVH said not to stew the meat of the kid in it's mother's milk. He specified KID not LAMB or CALF, He was speaking to an agragarian people who all kept (and ate) their own animals, and He was giving a humanitarian "law" and one that happened to specify goats (I don't know why goats, but that's what He said) - it's the rabbi's who decided that it might "stew" in your stomach and that it referred to ANY clean animal, and therefore you can't eat milk with meat.

Abraham ate them together and even served them to the "men of YHVH" so I guess that's good enough for me.

However, anyone who thinks that Peter's vision tells us to eat whatever we want should just tear that epistle out of their bible -- they obviously don't believe that Peter was inspired by YHVH or that he spoke the truth. Peter said that HE understood exactly what the vision meant when he was called to go to Cornelius's home. HE understood that YHVH was saying not to call any MAN unholy or unclean. HE understood that that simply meant that when he was called to go to a gentile believer's home, that he was allowed to do so (the rabbis taught that gentiles were the same as unclean animals and so the Jews wouldn't even speak to them if they could help it, and they CERTAINLY wouldn't enter their homes or allow them to enter theirs). He never ate unclean animals before, during or after the vision. HE knew it referred NOT to the dietary laws, but to Rabbinical laws regarding GENTILES.

Shaul (NOT CHANGED to paul, though he is so called in the new testament) when defending himself against the pharisees (book of Acts) who were calling for all gentiles to be circumcised "to be saved" (which of course it couldn't do - it never was about salvation) said "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel (a most prominent Rabbi), taught according to the strictness of our fathers' law, and was zealous toward YHVH as you are today" then going on to describe his conversion to "the WAY".
The next day, the commander of the roman garrison in Jerusalem wanted to know exactly what (and why) he was being accused of by the Jews (pharisees), so he convened a council with the high priest Ananias in charge. Ananias commanded that he be struck on the mouth for saying "men and bretheran, I have lived in all good conscience before YHVH until this day" (ie, I have not broken YHVH's law right up to the present moment) and Shaul said to Ananias "YHVH will strike you, you whitewashed wall! For you sit to judge me according to the law, and do you command me to be struck CONTRARY to the law?" A short while later (same chapter)he realizes that there are both Sadducees and Pharisees assembled in this council and he states "Men and bretheren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee; concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am being judged". He didn't say "I WAS a Pharisee", he said "I AM a Pharisee".
HE had never eaten pork, didn't start eating pork, and he NEVER told anyone else to!

When writing to Timothy (1Timothy 4:1-5) he says "Now the Spirit expressly says that IN LATTER TIMES, some will DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to DECEIVING SPIRITS and doctrines of demons (SURELY he's NOT saying that Torah is "doctrines of demons"!!!) speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, FORBIDDING TO MARRY, AND commanding to abstain from foods which YHVH CREATED to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of YHVH is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of YHVH and prayer." This has been SOOOOOO misunderstood.

First and foremost, Shaul was a PHARISEE, a JEW ALL HIS LIFE, zealous for YHVH. NO observant Jew would eat swine or shellfish or any other unclean animal. WHY?? Because YHVH did NOT PROVIDE THEM FOR FOOD. They are on the earth to help clean it up, but are NOT EDIBLE for that very reason. Jews don't even consider them to BE food stuff. In much the same way as I don't consider cats or dogs to be food stuff. I wouldn't eat either one under any circumstances (not even if I was starving) and the Jews wouldn't eat swine, shell fish or any other unclean creature.

Second, some of the new believers decided that to be on the "safe side", they should be vegetarians. Shaul said that there was no reason for them to NOT eat food "which YHVH CREATED TO BE RECEIVED WITH THANKSGIVING". That is ALL CLEAN ANIMALS, but NEVER AN UNCLEAN ONE!

And third, there WERE "clean" animals that were sacrificed to idols, but of course since they were IDOLS and not YHVH, the bodies were not consumed. Often the meat from those animals was distributed among the people. Shaul is saying that IF it's an acceptable meat (that is a "clean" animal) and if you don't KNOW it's been sacrificed to idols, then don't ask, but "accept it with thanksgiving for it is sanctified by the word of YHVH and prayer." BUT that IS assuming that it is a clean animal. NOTHING that YHVH said is unclean can be made clean simply by you saying "God bless this". For starters, He won't. But if it's a clean animal that someone ELSE had offered for sacrifice to an idol, and you don't know for certain that it was, THEN YHVH will accept you partaking of it for the sake of your hosts and will cleanse it for your body. If you DO know for certain that it was a sacrifice to an idol, then you are not to eat it regardless.

The book of Galatians is the most misunderstood and most often misquoted in the whole of scripture. It was and IS about requiring circumcision as a requirement of conversion to the Way (and incidentally Judaism). The galatians had been pagans. They were in bondage to their beliefs and traditions. They were never in "bondage" to Torah!! And to consider YHVH's commandments as "weak and beggerly elements" is nothing short of blasphemy against YHVH.

As the Galatians converted to the Way, they were uncertain HOW to obey so they set their sights on the Essenes at Quamran. This was an ULTRA ORTHODOX, ULTRA STRICT sect that believed that you had to be circumcised FIRST, THEN be mikveh'd (baptized) in spirit and live Torah in complete obedience (and yes, we're talking TALMUDIC torah, not SCRIPTURAL torah) for a year, after which time you would be judged according to how well you did. That established your "level" in the order IF you were even allowed to stay there at all. They also believed you had to be mikveh'd 7 TIMES A DAY EVERY DAY.
THIS WAS a HUGE burden, especially for the galatians. Shaul said NOT to do those things which were rabbinic law. He TAUGHT them Torah, not TALMUD!

He also said to "walk in the Spirit" "for I delight in the Law of YHVH after the inward (spiritual) man. But I see another law (fleshly desires)in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into CAPTIVITY to the LAW OF SIN which is in my members (flesh). If you are lead by the Spirit, you will not go against the Torah, you will follow it, for the SPIRIT is what puts the Torah in our hearts! If you are a New Covenant Believer, you are not UNDER the Torah, the Torah will be written in your heart AS YOU MATURE in YHVH's word.

The Spirit of YHVH allows us to keep His instructions - YHVH's Spirit and YHVH's Torah are "best friends", not mortal enemies!!! They work TOGETHER, always, NEVER against each other!

In 1 Corinthians, Shaul writes "Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS OF YHVH IS WHAT MATTERS" What are the commandments of YHVH?? TORAH!

Finally,in 2Timothy 4:1-4, Shaul says "I charge you therefore before YHVH and Messiah Yashua, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom; Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when THEY WILL NOT ENDURE SOUND DOCTRINE, BUT ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRES, because they have itching ears, they will HEAP UP FOR THEMSELVES TEACHERS; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

Last of all....what is sin? According to 1James 3:4 "whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness (Torahlessness), and SIN IS LAWLESSNESS (Torahlessness). If you don't know Torah, you won't know what YHVH is writing on your heart and you will be in sin constantly.

Don't listen to me...you don't have to believe ANYTHING I say.
But you DO need to know what YHVH says and you need to read it over and over until you truly understand it ALL, NOT what your "human pastors" have taught you because they were often taught wrong. Many don't really know scripture and many, many more have NO CLUE about Torah and obedience.
READ ALL SCRIPTURE.
READ IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN.
Then read it again just to be sure.
The more often you read Torah, the more you will understand the need to obey YHVH AND the better you will understand what the New Covenant is and what the New Testament means.
Granted, NOT all Torah "laws" are for everyone, not all of them CAN be done (all sacrifices have been done away with until the new temple is completed AND Yashua is reigning).
YHVH will put in on your heart those which apply to you, His Spirit WILL tell you which to observe IF you allow Him to.

Shalom,
Kat

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Slade,
also... you referred to a "miraculous execution of the unfaithful" where "some guys tried to offer strange incense that the lord didn't perscribe" Well, first of all, they were Aaron's sons, and priests to boot and certainly knew better but wanted to offer Him something that THEY wanted to offer, not what HE told them to. Second of all, there were MANY "executions" in the old testament, and fewer but still some in the new, but the ones you refer to in Acts were not "unbelievers" but supposed believers who figured they could cheat YHVH and get away with it. Peter says (Acts 5:4) While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to YHVH." But NONE of that was about the New Covenant, just about disobeying and/or lying to YHVH.

As far as "bastards" not being allowed in the congregation - that's RABBINIC law again - NOT MOSAIC, and THAT'S what Peter's vision was all about!

And I'm just as discouraged talking to you. I am NOT a "jahova's witness", I got MY points together, tried to present it in a clear fashion and backed it with scripture and you couldn't receive it either.

I AM still just as much a "legalist" if that means that I obey YHVH, and I hope to always have the strength to do so.

I wasn't going to respond anymore but YHVH said I had to try one more time. He absolutely insisted and wouldn't take no (or more accurately "but I'm TIRED of trying to get through to them" which is what I said to Him) and kept putting scripture after scripture into my head until I felt like I would burst. I have severe memory problems after having had open heart surgery and I'm unable to memorize much of anything - it took me a YEAR to memorize my own phone number!! The scriptures I've been quoting haven't been from my memory, I am virtually unable to quote scripture, but YHVH keeps putting verses in my head and either I have to look them up myself, or He tells me where to find them, depending on how much I need to know them (like my dad making me look up words to find out how they were spelled...YHVH makes me look up certain scriptures to find out where they are....)

What I said about Yom Kippur is that it is STILL an appointed time, and a time to reflect on our sins and ask for forgiveness for any that we may be unaware of.

And I do believe that YHVH still cares about the "small stuff". Shaul said in Galatians 5:9 that "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."

Since leaven (yeast) had to be removed for the feast of Hag haMotzot (unleavened bread) because it represented sin, Shaul was saying that a "little" sin leads to the whole being sinful. Sounds like the "small stuff" still counts.

You quote Psalms fairly often, yet you don't seem to understand that David (and Solomon after him) LOVED YHVH's LAW. I suspect you missed the point when Psalm 95 said "For forty years I was grieved with that generation. And said, "it is a people who go astray in their hearts, and THEY DO NOT KNOW MY WAYS."
David constantly praises YHVH's Laws, in fact the whole of Psalm 119 is about His Laws! It's the longest Psalm in the entire book and it's an alef/bet (alphabetical) listing of how wonderful YHVH's Laws are!

YHVH is not looking to make DIFFERENT covenants with people - He has ONE all set up for EVERYONE who believes. He's not going around looking for someone to make this covenant with and someone else to make that covenant with. If you really believe that, you have negated all scripture in one fell swoop! I pray that YHVH enlightens you quickly and surely.

I have no idea how janet jackson got into your "lesson" but I don't believe it was YHVH speaking....

And Moses wasn't "so busy in his own head that God had to set a bush on fire just to get his attention so he could talk to him!" YHVH had not ever spoken directly to Moses before that, and He didn't "set a bush on fire", the fire WAS YHVH, manifesting Himself to Moses so that Moses would know WHO was talking to him, as He did with the Israelites in the desert when he appeared as a piller of fire by night and a pillar of smoke by day to lead them. In fact, when Yashua kept telling the Pharisees "Repent for the KINGDOM OF GOD IS AT HAND" He was referring to Himself - the "kingdom of God" is a Hebraic idiom meaning "YHVH made manifest" and was said whenever YHVH performed a miracle - the ten plagues on Egypt showed "the kingdom of God" to the people, as did the parting of the Red Sea, and the pillars of smoke and fire - Moses told the people to TELL their children how they saw the Kingdom of YHVH with those signs. And the Pharisees knew EXACTLY what He meant. It was part of the reason they wanted to get rid of Him.

Shalom,
Kat

Chelki,
I wrote a huge reply to Slade (and specified it for him) before I read your question about the prophesy of Jeremiah (the new Covenant). I think what I told Slade will answer that question for you too....but it may be buried so deep that you won't see it....soo....
it begins in paragraph 4, then skips to paragraphs 19-23 (I know, it's horribly long and then I had to add another posting....took me almost all day, but YHVH would NOT let me quit, no matter how much I wanted to). Hope this helps.
Shalom,
Kat

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Kat,

I just read your lengthy post -- that's how I read my Bible!

If you would stay, I have a question about Job -- we could start another thread. I just finished reading Job, which I find quite interesting since he was a Gentile. Recently I have seen comments that Elihu was an angel of darkness, representing hasatan or was hasatan himself. Also that the book is phophetic of end times??

I'm not really into prophecy, but wonder if you have any thoughts about that?

Blessings,

Chelki

OK after I finished writing half of what I did I realized that I was not at all humble & for that I apologize.

I may or may not go into detail about what you wrote to refute my beliefs because there is a passage about fruitless debates.

There is one passage that you said didnt exist so I will tell you where to find it. Deut 23:2 says that no bastard will be allowed into the congregatiion. So as I said before, if Jesus didn't make a new covenant allowing me to participate then I guess I am wasting my time because God will never allow me into heaven, the new earth or antything else like his church. I personnaly beleive that God speaks to me so there must be a provision for me to be able to be accepted into the beloved. However I may be wrong.

I have one question for you Kat, you said that Jesus condones the death penalty, and that the new covenant is nothing like what I believe it to be. If God didnt change from the mosaic covenant then my question is can I go & kill any homosexual that I see? Because in Lev 20:13 it says that homosexuals should be put to death. And I personally would love to have an excuse to kill homosexuals, so seeing as how I cannot be in the congregation according to Deut 23:2 I might ase well fulfill his will & kill homosexuals because Jesus blood can't get me into heaven because God doesnt change & no bastard can ever get in, to the tenth generation, so all my kids will never get into heaven either so I might as well not praise God, throw out my bible & kill homosexuals.

Now I will never kill a homosexual (God willing) but my point is that if God is always the same then our whole country is going to the trash (recieve judgement) for letting homosexuals not only live, but have parades.

Whats funny (to me) is that you quoted 1 Cor 7:19 & (in my opinion) missed the whole point of what it was saying.

God told me something while I was reading what you wrote, He said "I did speak to her" & that means that both of us are correct & wrong or better yet we both have different pieces of the puzzle that don't seem to fit with each other. You are not all wrong & I am not all wrong; we can both learn from each other if we humble ourselves but I personally have a hard time doing that, so forgive me if I dont anytime soon.

I personally believe that if God doesn't want us to eat pork or he does want us to observe Yom Kippur, that he will convict us in our hearts as you quoted Jer 31:33 thats where he writes the covenant. Also I believe that the new covenant that is presented there in Jer 31:31-34 is not the new covenant that we are having now because it is not only between the Isrealites & God, becasue although the gentiles are grafted into the house of Abraham, the covenant is for us, as I (mis)quoted before, Rom 11:28 "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes". Regardless that Rom 1:16 "it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the greek" The Jews denied that Jesus was the messiah & God used that to give the covenant to us gentiles.

As far as human pastors goes - I had a question for you in another post about where you got some of your ideas like the putting away of sacrifices & obeying mans laws over God's in cases not concerning worship, where did you get those ideas, from a scripture or from a man? I know that God uses human pastors otherwise he would not appont them into the church. Now you say that you aggree with me on one point - that Animal sacrifices aren't nessisary; my point is how do you reconcile that with the passage in James that says if you keep the whole law yet offend in one point you are guilty of all? Wich reminds me if you don't kill a homosexsual; are you guilty?

OK so I will shut up now before I get all prideful again, & I am sorry if I had pride comming out of me in these statements. As I said before I care about you as a sister in Christ, if I didnt then I wouldnt expend any energy.

I am still dying to find out what stand Steve takes on this issue of the new covenant as he is one of my human pastors & I value his opinion.

Chelki,

I don't have any strong feelings about Job being prophecy, but personally I don't see it as such other than as prophesying how people will react in the future. As for Elihu, I don't THINK he was either hasatan or his representitive....I believe he was a believer in YHVH (see his discourse in chapters 34 through 36, however, I DO believe he was wrong in his "take" on YHVH. In 36:5 he states that "Behold, God is mighty, but he despises no one; He is mighty in strength of understanding." which frankly echo's much of what Christianity today also says - YHVH would never punish anyone, nor would He allow anyone who loves Him to be harmed by hasatan. That is NOT what YHVH has EVER said or done. Granted that He doesn't punish anyone without reason, but people are tested on a regular basis (have some personal experience with that) to see if they REALLY love Him or are just paying lip-service to Him. In that manner, I think Elihu was perhaps playing "devil's advocate" which is not the same as being in league with hasatan. But Elihu honestly believed that Job MUST have done something very wrong, very wicked, for all the problems he was having to have happened to him. That was common thinking then, and it's not terribly uncommon now. Elihu DOES get in trouble with YHVH for his take on things, but I don't think he's evil, nor do I think that his punishment will be everlasting. But he WILL be judged on his actions on Judgement Day.

I find his name interesting, being a derivitive form of Eliyahu (Elijah). Eli(pronounced Ay-Lee) is an aramaic word meaning essentially "daddy" (as opposed to the much more formal "father" Yashua usually used when speaking to YHVH)which Yashua used when He was on the stake crying out to YHVH, and which is WHY the people thought he was crying out to Eliyahu (pronounced Ay-Lee-Ya-Hoo). I'm not sure that it matters at all, but I find the similarity in the name interesting.

Shalom,
kat

Slade,
I will concede that I was in error about Deut. 23:2, it DOES say that. However, I believe it was to make the people more aware of His dislike of immorality, than it was of His refusing the illegitimate child. That section of the "law" was about sexual morality and I believe He was telling them to consider what could happen to the child if they (the parents) are immoral. However, YHVH always left Himself the choice of mercy on ANYONE HE CHOSE TO SHOW MERCY TO. And after all, it was hardly the child's fault that his parents were acting immorally. In Hebrews 12:7-8 Shaul explains: "If you endure chastening, YHVH deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, THEN you are illegitimate and not sons." Since we are His children, how can we be truely illegitimate?? Only by rejecting Him as our father. I think that the passage in Deuteronomy one with multiple meanings. Warning to people NOT to behave immorally (physical, obvious meaning) and a more subtle warning for all of us NOT to accept pagan gods (or haSatan) in place of our FATHER (spiritual meaning) by which we cause ourselves to become illegitimate.

Next point.
Yashua NEVER negated the death penalty IF THERE WAS PROPER EVIDENCE of guilt. Two eye- witnesses (or more) were required. LESS than that and He said NO to it (the adultrous woman - for whom no eye-witnesses came forth - "let he who is without sin cast the first stone") but He was willing to be put to death by execution (aside from the crucifixion) IF there was evidence against Him. The sanhedrin couldn't provide even ONE witness against Him, and so let Him go (and then planned the sneaky way of getting Him later).

As far as civil law taking precedence over scriptural law - obviously it must do so for various situations. When YHVH gave ALL the law to Moses, He did so knowing that Israel had no law of their own and they were coming into the promised land which was occupied by pagans. He told them to get rid of the pagans AND their gods, AND their places of worship. Then they were to live by All the law that He gave them, which HAD to include civil law or there would have been chaos. Yashua supported civil laws of the land when He told the pharisees to "render unto Caesar what is his" (i.e. pay your taxes, obey the local law). Shaul repeted and clarified this in Romans 13:1,2 "Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from YHVH, and the authorities that exist are appointed by YHVH. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of YHVH, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves." This is for our own sakes, since if we break the civil laws of the land in which we reside, we will be arrested and possibly put in jail or even to death. As for killing a homosexual by YHVH's Law- keep these things in mind.

1) YHVH said not to allow him to live BUT you still need at least two EYE-WITNESSES of his actual sexual ACTS (not his preferences) before you could execute him according to YHVH's law. 2) CIVIL laws take precedence when they exist (as they do here) and you are not allowed to simply kill someone because he happens to be something you don't like. 3) The only way they were allowed to "execute" someone was by stoning which isn't allowed here ever. 4) The 6th Commandment is "You shall not murder. If you kill a homosexual because you abhor him for his preferences, you are murdering him (not to mention judging him).

Therefore, I would have to say that NO, you may not just go ahead and kill a homosexual - or a witch (who YHVH also said you should not suffer to live) in this age and in this place. I said that not all laws apply to everyone, and that YHVH would put on your heart which apply to you IF you listen to Him. MANY of the laws applied either only to those who were in the physical land of Israel (those pertaining to going to Jerusalem 3 times a year on certain festivals for example), others only to the Priesthood, others only for men, others only for women. The Jews claim there are something like 613 laws altogether, but it's possible that only 30 may apply to you, maybe 40 to me (I have NO idea how many are going to actually apply to me, or you, or any individual. I was pulling numbers out of a hat by way of example, not specifics)....YHVH will let you know.

As for animal sacrifices, 2 points. One, I didn't say they weren't necessary, I said they COULD NOT BE DONE until the third temple (millenial rule). Two, IF we were to even TRY to do it here in the U.S., we'd be arrested and put away for animal abuse, so there's that "civil law" thing coming right back up again. That's not "offending" the law, that's interpreting it "correctly" as Yashua told us it should be done.

And what point of 1Cor 7:19 do you think I missed?? Shaul was saying that regardless of whether you are circumcised or not, it is following the LAW of YHVH that is important.
I don't THINK I missed anything there.

regarding "the Jews denied that Jesus was the messiah & God used that to give the covenant to us gentiles". First and foremost, almost ALL of the initial "church" was JEWISH. Peter (Kefa) preached to a FEW gentiles, but Cornelius is the only one actually NAMED, and Shaul was the only other apostle that EVER preached to gentiles. Up UNTIL the 2nd CENTURY, almost ALL believers were either Jews, or were gentile believers who had converted to it in order to fellowship with followers of "the Way" as it was then known. Only when the Romans decided to continue to kill Jews in Israel (and mostly wiped them out) did the "gentile believers" decide to separate themselves from the Jews. And it wasn't until the 2nd century that they suddenly decided they could change ANY of YHVH's laws. NONE of them worshiped on "sunday" (or 1st day as they called it) OR celebrated Yashua's birth, or anything sort of like "easter". They all kept the feasts listed in Leviticus and NONE of the ones "celebrated" today. YHVH didn't have to use anything at all to "give the covenant to us Gentiles", He DIDN'T give it to "us", He included US in IT. Big difference there. Tell me ANY scripture where it says that YHVH gave ANY covenant EVER ONLY to Gentiles. I guarantee that you won't be able to because He never ever did any such thing. But as with the "aliens" among Israel that He brought out of Egypt with Israel, He included them WITH Israel IF they followed His Torah, SO He includes us WITH Israel in the NEW Covenant, IF we believe in Yashua, and follow His Torah. (we're saved only in Yashua, the following of Torah is a RESULT of that salvation, NOT a requirement FOR it).

Oh, and Pentecost is ONE OF YHVH'S 7 FESTIVALS, NOT one invented for "christians". It was YHVH's CHOICE to have the Spirit descend on the apostles on that day, but the feast is still one of YHVH's appointed times (also known as first fruits or Shavuot).

Second, yes, the New Covenant is listed for the first time in Jeremiah, however Shaul REPEATED IT in Hebrews, not once but first in Chapter 8:8-12, and then again in Chapter 10:16-17! Shaul KNEW what the New Covenant was. And yes, the old SHALL pass away when Yashua returns - not before. WHEN He returns for us, He will consumate the marriage by writing the Law on our hearts and the old which was written on stone will no longer be necessary and will pass away. But if it was already gone, we'd have no way of knowing what YHVH wants from us until then.

As for "human pastors". I agree that we need them, at least we need SOME. YHVH warns in Ezekiel about irresponsible shepherds, and says "Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselvesl Should not the shepherds feed he flocks?" He is referring to ANY human "shepherds" who lead "their" sheep astray from the His word. He spends ALL of chapter 34 talking about this (and explaining that He is the Good Shepherd). He is referring to the rabbis' who kept adding to His word and ruining it for all, AND for the pastors who take away from His word, teaching things wrongly and ruining it for all. Granted not all ministers do this, but more and more are because they DON'T LEARN ANY OLD TESTAMENT, and can not correctly interpret NEW TESTAMENT as a result. They LEARN it wrong, then go on to TEACH it wrong. YHVH says they will be judged very harshly because of it.

I'm not trying to be prideful either and if it appears that I am, I repent of it. I care about you and everyone else who believes in Yashua, and YHVH is telling me that I must get these things before you all so that you can search the scriptures for yourself.

Shalom,
Kat

Excuse me Kat as I was crying yesterday & praying about all the things that we were talking about God revealed to me my main issue with your doctrine. Not the word of God, but my heart has this problem & I can't reconcile how we have the same father with such opposing views. I believe that one clasuse in a long prophecy about Jesus also applies to me, "He gave him zeal as a a cloke" - so I will get right in your face & dispute or whatever & often times not be comming from the best place in my heart but I know what I know what I know & for you to tell me different you gotta prove it to me so I can bow down & follow your doctrine. Here is the issue - you said that new testament gentile believers must participate in some type of Yom Kippur ceremony that doesn't involve an animal sacrifice (wich defeats the whole purpose because to do the ceremony it requiires a sacrifice) so my question to you is how exactly am I, a new testament gentile believer supposed to celebrate the day of atonement? preferably with details. I feel free in my heart to agree to dissagree with you on any other issue that we cant see eye to eye on but this one will divide us (like someone said the word of God can cure like a scalpel & wound like a bayonet) if we can't come to a resolution. Now I will tell you what my human pastors told me about my situation with you & the dispute I am having with our doctrines & the 1st one told me "You can say the sun is setting, & I can say the sun has rose, & we can argue untill we are blue in the face & both of us be right" & maybe somehow in a way that I cannot concieve we both are right, the other one quoted James "Every good gift comes from above" - so the good givt that you got came from the same father that gave me my good gift. So perhaps we will never come to a mutual understanding on the interpretation of the word of God, but I want us to because I am prettty sure that we serve the same father, and it says in 1st Cor 1:10 that we be together with no divisions among us in the same mind & in the same judgement. My limited human mind cannot comprehend how you & I can both be right, it seems that either new testament gentile believers are required to participate in some cerymony on yom Kipputr or they are not it cant be both ways can it? I just hate not knowing my sins, because ignorance is no excuse with God, I sin ebnough that I know about; I don't want to add any more charges against me that I don't even know about.

As far as Deut 23:2 - it says what it says that God judged me for something my parents did & I had no control over. He also judged my children for the same act that my parents did so it didn't matter that I had my children out of wedlock because they were already judged because I was born out of wedlock. Now the only reason why I didn't stop reading the bible whenI read that passage is because I heard about God's mercy. But later on in Ezekiel he created a new covenant with mankind & tells you & me that every law that judges a man or woman based on the sins of their parents has been done away with. And the passage I am refering to is chapter 18 where it says something about it has been heard that the fathers have eaten sour grapes but the children's teeth are set on edge - well there shall be no more cause for to use this proverb in isreal because the soul that sinneth it shall die.

Like I said I don't want to argue about unimportant points with you I want to get to the heart of the matter so please tell me what I am required to do for yom kippur as a new testament believer so I can pray about it & see if you are right.

Slade,

Kat responded to Deut 23:2 well. I have some study references so I searched to find something from the Hebrew that might explain what this verse is about.

Thought this might help – I looked up some commentary on Deuteronomy 23:2.

The Jews believe that it is a misconception that the Hebrew word "mamzer" is someone born out of wedlock. Rather, it is someone born of a union between a man and woman whose marriage could NEVER be valid, such as a union between brother and sister or some other form of incest. A "mamzer" and all of his or her decendants were to never marry an Israelite. However, they could marry non-Hebrews in Israel or other "mamzer".

So it is not clear what it means to "enter into the congregation of the Lord". It is possible that it meant they could not be admitted into the assembly of elders, or bear any public office. They for sure could not become a part of the nation by marrying an Israelite.

It is obvious God put this rule in place so there would be a stigma to discourage practices that were disgraceful and unlike what He wanted the character of His people to be. It was not the way of His divine order of creation.

Blessings,

Chelki

First of all, I want to thank everyone for a very good topic and discussion. This is very encouraging since Shawn and I believe it's possible for many people to grow closer to God through a discussion such as this. However, it's also possible for there to be much confusion and even hurt if we do not proceed with love and grace. Please, please, please, we ALL must pray about our posts and make certain they are being made in the Spirit of love for the purpose of building one another up.

I will give my response and then I am going to close this topic. Please feel free to open up similar topics or any other topic which this discussion may have brought to the surface. My response will not completely answer all the questions, but it should be viewed as the official position of this ministry.

I believe this topic began by asking "What is the New Covenant?"

First, the term New Covenant implies there is an Old Covenant. We need to begin by understanding that the Old Covenant is the Covenant God made with the "nation" of Israel through Moses as they were brought out of Egyptian slavery. At one level, the purpose of the Old Covenant was to teach God's people how to live and to provide a means for the forgiveness of sin through the system of sacrifices. But at another level, the whole purpose of the Old Covenant was to point God's people to Christ. The Old Covenant contained laws which caused us to better understand the concept of sin and how hard it is (impossible) for us to ever live without sin. The purpose of the Law was to cause us to understand we are sinners. The purpose of the sacrificial system was to teach us about forgiveness and the seriousness of sin - a life was required (shedding of blood) for the forgiveness; "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Hebrews 9:22). Both of these lead us to Christ; "So the Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the Law" (Galatians 3:25).

Hebrews 10:1
"The Law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship."

I will touch more on this in a moment.

The Old Covenant was put in place by God through Moses about the year 1450 BC, then came 40 years of desert wandering, then the entrance into the land of Canaan. Then, a period of about 400 years where the people cycled through following God's commands and drifting away (this is found through the book of Judges). Then comes Kings Saul, David, and Solomon - and then about the year 930 BC the Kingdom split into a Northern and Southern Kingdom with the Northern Kingdom ending about the year 722 BC and the Southern Kingdom ending in 586 BC.

Why do I include this type of brief history? Because maybe it's useful to understand that from the time the Old Covenant was put in place until the end of the Southern Kingdom (a period of almost 900 years) God continued to speak to His people through prophets and call then to return to His with a heart of worship and follow the laws they promised to obey. And despite God's continual calling and warnings of punishment if they failed to obey, the people continued to drift away.

Finally, when God said He was going to destroy the Southern Kingdom He also said He was going to make a new covenant; "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people" (Jeremiah 31:33). This new covenant was designed to be permanent and under God's complete protection: "I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear Me, so that they will never turn away from Me" (Jeremiah 32:40).

After the Southern Kingdom was destroyed, God spoke through the prophet Ezekiel and told more about how this new covenant would be put in place; "I will give you a new heart and put a new Spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit in you and move you to follow My decrees and be careful to keep My laws" (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

This may still seem a little confusing, but God's plan was to give us a new and better covenant - not a covenant based on our ability to follow laws and perform sacrifices, but based on faith and relying on God's strength through His Spirit. Jesus said His blood represented the New Covenant; "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins" (Matthew 26:28). The gospel of Luke records the words of Jesus as "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you" (Luke 22:20).

The blood of Jesus (His sacrifice on the cross) is the New Covenant for the forgiveness of sin. We enter into this covenant when we believe that His sacrifice will forgive our sins (note the implication that we must understand we are a sinner in need of forgiveness). The moment we enter into this covenant we are saved, or "born again." God then gives us His Spirit as He promised and a new heart which is moved to follow His decrees and laws.

I'm tempted to just end my post here, but I won't. I know there is no way I can answer all the questions in a single post but there has been much discussion on the role of the Law in the life of a Christian. Without going into great detail I will make the following bold statement.

ALL of the law, with ALL of the festivals, dates and rituals are but a shadow of the good things to come. What does this mean? A shadow gives us a hint of the reality but it is not the true reality. The reality of ALL the Old Covenant is found in Christ; "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ (Colossians 2:16-17).

Following the Law cannot add one single straw to our Salvation, but true Salvation will compel (or move) us to follow the Law. What Law? The Law written on our heart. Do not become burdened with some kind of written code! "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Galatians 3:3). But, but, but, but, but..... IF we have entered into the New Covenant, we have been given His Spirit and should now be moved to follow the reality which is in Christ. If we are not in the process of moving to be more like Christ then chances are we have not entered into the New Covenant.

I hope this helps!

Again, thank you for a very good discussion topic.

This topic is now closed.