Slade,

I am reposting what I started on the New Covenant thread so I could continue my continuity of thought ---

Slade,

Kat responded to Deut 23:2 well. I have some study references so I searched to find something from the Hebrew that might explain what this verse is about.

Thought this might help – I looked up some commentary on Deuteronomy 23:2.

The Jews believe that it is a misconception that the Hebrew word “mamzer” is someone born out of wedlock. Rather, it is someone born of a union between a man and woman whose marriage could NEVER be valid, such as a union between brother and sister or some other form of incest. A “mamzer” and all of his or her decendants were to never marry an Israelite. However, they could marry non-Hebrews in Israel or other “mamzer”.

So it is not clear what it means to “enter into the congregation of the Lord”. It is possible that it meant they could not be admitted into the assembly of elders, or bear any public office. From what I have studied they were not to become a part of the nation by marrying an Israelite.

It is obvious God put this rule in place so there would be a stigma to discourage practices that were disgraceful and unlike what He wanted the character of His people to be. It was not the way of His divine order of creation.

Blessings,

Chelki


As a continuation of my comments on Deut. 23:2

There is some question by commentators just how long this rule was enforced, though the scripture says it was to the tenth generation. Ten is the number of complete exclusion and signifies “forever”.

Verses 3-6 also exclude the Ammonite and Moabite. Though these groups of people came from an incestuous relationship, other reasons are given for their exclusion:

1) their hostility toward the Israelites – failing to allow the Israelites to travel through their land and

2) the king of Moab hiring Balaam to curse Israel.

I have said this to mention Ruth, Naomi’s daughter-in-law. Not just once, but several times the Scripture mentions she was a Moabitess. It may be this instruction that prompts that. She had married an Israelite outside the land of Israel and when her husband died she went with Naomi back to Israel, saying, “Your People shall be my People and your God my God”.

Could it be partly the fact that she was Moabitess that kept others of her husband’s kinsmen from coming forth to marry her? Boaz then takes his place as kinsmanredeemer.

The real point is God’s grace! Not only was she allowed to live in Israel, marry an Israelite, but she became a part of the lineage of Jesus! THAT is AMAZING grace!

Slade, when God sees a heart for Him, His grace covers ALL! even in ancient times. Who is our God? He is the Holy One of Israel! He has not changed.

Blessings,

Chelki

God bless you - as I stated according to my theology Deut 23:2 says what it says & your commentators may be right but God didn't explain it to me that way. The important part for me is what I said concerning Ez chapter 18 - that chapter tells me that any ordinance that judges me by the sins of my parents is no longer valid.

I also heard that the tenth generation means forever.

Don't worry about me I made peace with God about that passage a long time ago, the only reason I brought it up was to make a point & the point that I was trying to make is that if Romans 14 doesn't negate my bloodguiltiness for not participating in yom kippur, then Ez 18 doesnt negate Deut 23:2 & I am not qualified to even hear the words of the lord let alone preach it & that is just the way my theology works, so for her to say that my christianity is missing something rocks my foundation because she told me that my interpretation is incorrect & if it is incorrect here then I assumne it must be incorrect there as well; understand?

Yes, I understand, and I won't try to persuade you differently.

God bless you!
Chelki

In a side note I hope kat doesn't mind, I just will post what she told me answering my question about how to do yom kippur:

Slade,
regarding "how do I do Yom Kippur?" Not with a "ceremony" since the only ceremony was concerning the sacrifice. Otherwise, you keep it the way it says to in Leviticus 23, 27-32 with the ONE exception and that is the offering made by fire (which is a sacrifice, which we don't do because YHVH decreed that we no longer had to)- notice, NO MAN decided that, YHVH did.
"And also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonemunt. It shall be a holy Convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire to YHVH. And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before YHVH Elohanu. For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath."

Afflicting your souls means to reflect on anything and everything you may have done wrong during the past year, ANYTHING which you should ask YHVH for forgiveness for. Other than that, it says to keep it as a special sabbath and do NO WORK. that's it.....since YHVH cancelled out the need for the sacrifice, which, by the way, was prophesied in Daniel 9:27 which says that He shall CONFIRM a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until THE CONSUMMATION, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate." Yashua was the confirmation of the Covenant - haSatan now has rule over the earth UNTIL the CONSUMMATION of the covenant/marriage - when haSatan will be destroyed, the time of which has already been determined.

Regarding sins you may not know about - that, I believe is the whole REASON why YHVH made Yom Kippur "a statuate forever throughout your generations". So that we can "afflict our souls" and ask for forgiveness for those offenses that we may not even be aware of, to ask Him to bring them to our hearts and to ask the Spirit to intercede for us in prayer for those He may not make known to us for reasons of His own.

And I will post the relevent part of my answer:

will say this: that what you told me sounds all well & good; that yom kippur could be or should be for the new testament gentile believers a day of repentance & a sabbath to the lord to do no work therin & although from this day forth I may be convicted in my own heart to treat it that way; I cannot preach that all new testament gentile believers gotta do it or else; because I am stuck in romans 14 not to mention the other passage that says let every one abide in the calling that they were called; if I was called uncircumcized, seek not to be circumsized; if I were called circumcized, seek not to be uncircumcized.

So she pretty much converted me to a new way of thinking & treating yom kippur as a new testament gentile believer - I just gotta work out the kinks in prayer so to speak. Perhaps I can preach that it is a good idea for new testament gentile believers to worship extra on yom kippur but I can't make it a requirement; because there is only one requirement of salvation & that is Jesus in your heart & his blood covering your sins.

Slade,

Receive His grace. I pray you are encouraged to do things God's way. As you have rightly spoken, do not ask what He requires, but what He wants of you.

Step by step we are coming to represent His Kingdom here on earth.

Blessings,

Chelki

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9.

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage." Galatians 5:1.

Yashua said:

Matt 5:17-19
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth PASS AWAY, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till ALL is fulfilled. WHOEVER therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, AND TEACHES MEN SO, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever DOES AND TEACHES THEM, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 7:20-23
Therefore by their FRUITS you will know them. NOT EVERYONE who says to Me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day. "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Yor name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice LAWLESSNESS!"

Matt 12:50
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.

Matt 15:7-9
Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: "These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

Matt 19:17
So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, YHVH. But if you want to enter into life, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."

Matt 24:12-13
And because LAWLESSNESS will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 7: 8-9, 13
"For laying aside the commandment of YHVH, you hold the tradition of men--the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do."
He said to them "All too well you reject the commandment of YHVH, that you MAY KEEP YOUR TRADTION...making the word of YHVH of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."

Mark 8:33
But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of YHVH, but the things of men."

Luke 6:46
But why do you call Me "Lord, Lord" and NOT DO THE THINGS WHICH I SAY?

Luke 8:18
Therefore take heed how you hear. For whoever has, to him more will be given; and whoever does not have, even what he seems to have will be taken from him.

Luke 8:21
But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of YHVH and DO IT."

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 7:16
Yashua answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me."

John 8:47
He who is of YHVH hears YHVH's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of YHVH.

John 10:37-38
If I do not do the WORKS of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I DO, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.

John 12:49-50
But I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told me, so I speak.

Now, if you MUST quote Shaul, then lets look at what HE had to say about the law.

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Romans 6:14-18, 22
For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But YHVH be thanked that though you WERE slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine TO WHICH you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, YOU BECAME SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS...But now having been set free from sin, and HAVING BECOME SLAVES OF YHVH, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Romans 7:12
Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Romans 7:22-25
For I delight in the law of YHVH according to the inward man. But I see ANOTHER law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into CAPTIVITY to the law OF SIN which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? And I thank YHVH--through Yashua Messiah our Master! So then, with the mind I MYSELF serve the law of YHVH, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:7-8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against YHVH; for it is not subject to the law of YHVH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please YHVH.

Romans 16:25-27
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Yashua Messiah, according to the revelations of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now made manifest, and by the prophetic scriptures made known to all nations, ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT of the everlasting Elohim, for obedience to the faith-- to YHVH, alone wise, be glory through Yashua Messiah forever. Amen

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS OF YHVH is what matters.

1 Corinthians 10:20-21
Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to YHVH, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. You cannot drink the cup of YHVH and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of YHVH's table and of the table of demons.

Gaatians 4:8-9
But then, indeed, when you did not know YHVH, you served those which by nature are no gods. But now after you have known YHVH, or rather are known by YHVH, how is it that you TURN AGAIN to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?

Ephesians 4:17-19
This I say, therefore, and testify in YHVH, that you should no longer walk AS THE REST OF THE GENTILES WALK, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of YHVH, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all UNCLEANNESS with greediness.

Ephesians 5:5-11
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Messiah and YHVH. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of YHVH comes upon the SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE. Therefore DO NOT BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in YHVH. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO YHVH. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

Colossians 1:10
...that you may walk worthy of YHVH, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in EVERY GOOD WORK and increasing in the knowledge of Elohim...

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the TRADITION OF MEN, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Messiah.

Colossians 2:18-23
Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, and NOT holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from YHVH. Therefore, if you died with Messiah from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living IN the world, do you subject yourself to regulations--"do not touch, do not taste, do not handle" which all concern things which perish with the using--ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN? These things indeed have an APPEARANCE of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

2Thessalonians 2:7-12
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom Yashua will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the TRUTH, that they might be saved. And for this reason YHVH will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Timothy 3:14-16
But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which ARE ABLE to make you wise for salvation THROUGH faith which is in Messiah Yashua. ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of YHVH and is PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPROOF, FOR CORRECTIONS, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

2Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teahers; and they will turn their ears AWAY FROM THE TRUTH, and be turned aside to fables.

Titus 1:16
They profess to know YHVH, but in WORKS they deny Him, being abominable, DISOBEDIENT, and disqualified for every good work.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in YHVH should be careful to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable to men.

**It sounds to me like Shaul still believed in and followed the Law and encouraged others to do so as well.
Then there were the other apostles who wrote epistles, not to new converts but to those who already knew YHVH's law and practiced it, and who ALSO knew Yashua was the Messiah.**

James 2:14-24,26
What does it profit, my bretheren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you MY faith BY my works. You believe that there is one Elohim. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working TOGETHER with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed YHVH, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of YHVH. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith ONLY. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2Peter 2:21-22
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the HOLY COMMANDMENT delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.

2Peter 3:15-17
and consider that the longsuffering of Yashua is salvation--as also our beloved brother Shaul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from you own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

1John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

1John 2:3-7
Now by this we know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments. He who says, "I know Him," and does NOT keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of Elohim is perfected in him. By this we know we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk JUST as He walked. Bretheren, I write NO new commandment to you, but an old commandment which YOU HAVE HAD FROM THE BEGINNING. The old commandment is the word which you heard from the beginning.

1John3:4
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and SIN IS LAWLESSNESS.

1John 3:22, 24
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, BECAUSE we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1John 5:2-3
By this we know that we love the children of YHVH, when we love YHVH and KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. For this IS the love of YHVH, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments ARE NOT BURDENSOME.

2John 6
This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commanment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.

Jude 1:4-5,16
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of Elohaynu into lewdness and deny the only YHVH and our Master Yashua Messiah. But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that YHVH having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not beleive. These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.

Don't just read those verses that seem to support what you've been taught....read ALL the scriptures.

Shalom
kat