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Wayne - This is a wonderful question. Rather than just give you an answer, let me challenge you to think about what is meant by "innocent."
God never destroyed the innocent - He destroyed the utterly sinful. Challenge yourself with the definition of innocent and sinful. Blessings, Steve T. |
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| <Pax>
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Steve,
I am reading the old test too and have grappled with questions of that nature myself. While I firmly believe God's word and God are just and His ways are higher than ours and He knows all, the questions have entered my prayers to gain understanding. I trust God. But my main question is why are babies, children, ect destroyed in judgements and plans of God such as driving out people from their lands to establish Isreal. And Whole families were destroyed together for sins of their fathers and some mothers. Are you saying that children and babies are not innocent? I know they had to obey God's command, but why did they get judged too? I hope it is not wrong to wonder about that. I assume the children went to paradise / heaven. |
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A very good short answer to an often asked question!
Wayne, I hope in your studies you will fall in love with the OT as many have. God shows Himself as a God of mercy and grace, and so I would also challenge you to see Him throughout the OT as He describes Himself in the following passage: Exodus 34:6-7 "... The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; He punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation. " Blessings upon you and as you study may the Lord bring you great insight and wisdom. Pax, I don't have any other answer than the one given in Exodus 34. Consider that the same would be true when God destroyed the world with flood. Surely there were many innocent children then as well. I think the judgment was upon those of accountable age and God simply chose to include their children as well, possibly because they most likely would have followed suit. Be blessed in His love and faithfulness, Chelki Psalm 133 – "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore." |
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Pax,
My apologies for interfering. My initial response was for Wayne, and the Exodus 34 verse seemed to fit in well with a reply for you. I too would like to see how Steve would answer your question. Love and Blessings! Chelki Psalm 133 – "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore." [This message was edited by Chelki on February 09, 2003 at 09:47 AM.] |
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| <Pax>
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Thank you Chelki for your thoughtful reply. I realize that the children would likely grow to be like the parents and even rebel against the Isrealites and God. But I hope to see what Steve's take is. I know there's more to this than I'm seeing and lessons to be learned.
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Pax,
I don't recommend many books other than the Scripture itself. One though, in which I think you will find many answers to your questions is "Bible History Old Testament" by Alfred Edersheim -- a scholarly written book for those with inquiring minds  I think you will find one answer to this question there too!Blessings, Chelki Psalm 133 – "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore." |
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Again let me say this is a very good, and yet difficult, question. Never feel bad that these type of questions cause us to ponder and ask why. It's often in seeking answers such as this that we learn much more about the character of God.
God is perfectly holy and demonstrates perfect justice. These two exist in perfect harmony with one another without ever being in conflict. We must also understand that God is not obligated to give grace to ANYONE; "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Exodus 33:19). We don't really have a good grasp on the true sinfulness of man. Consider that God destroyed all the people of the earth in the flood except Noah and his family - why? "The Lord saw how great man's wickedness on earth had become" (Genesis 6:5). Did innocent people die in the flood? This answer lies in asking is there ANY innocence outside of a right relationship with God. Many years later, God chose Abraham to be the father of a special nation - a nation that would worship God and bring blessings to the rest of the world. This was the nation of Israel. When God first spoke to Abraham, He told him that his descendants would spend 400 years in slavery but would then return to take posession of the land. Look at why the 400 year wait: "In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure" (Genesis 15:16). God saw the decline of the people in the land and knew He would punish them in 400 years. The nation of Israel would be His instrument of punishment. God used Israel to bring judgement on the land of Canaan - in addition, He was forming the Israelites into a nation set apart for Him. God wanted them to be united and without the influences of the other "gods." Was this because Israel was basically good? Absolutely not! It was only because of God's grace. The real question is not why are some people destroyed - the real question is why are any of us allowed to live. We are all guilty and it's only through His grace offered through faith in Jesus that allows us to have fellowship with Him for all eternity. Any "innocence" we create in our flesh only deserves instant death and an eternity of suffering. Regarding the specific issue of babies and young children: This is an issue which simply does not have a conclusive scriptural answer. On one had we absolutely must understand that the sin nature we have, we have at birth. We are ALL sinners - even before we have the ability to actually perform a sinful act. This sinful nature deserves eternal death! Then, on the other hand, Jesus certainly shows a very special place in His heart for children. My conclusion is that if babies and young children go to Heaven when they die, it is purely an act of special grace from God. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy - and if He chooses to have mercy on a certain group, then that is His right as the Sovereign God and is certainly not a violation of who He claims to be. I know I rambled a little and maybe invited more questions than what I answered, but I hope this helps a little. |
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| <Pax>
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Steve
Oh yes! Your reply did help. Thank you for taking the time to give a well thought out inspired answer. May God bless and increase your ministry. I will ponder all that you have said Chelki, Thanks for your help. I will try to findd that book, I love to read anyway. Blessings to you and your family. |
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| <kathy k>
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Praise The Lord, Everyone!
I, too, am reading the Old Testament. I also found myself shuddering at the thought of whole families, including children being killed. I look at my fifteen-month-old son and it hurts me to think about babies being destroyed along with their parents. However, the Bible that I have (New International Version Life Application Study Bible) has been helping me a great deal. A study Bible is an excellent tool to use to help you in reading and understanding the Bible. It has footnotes which answer these very difficult-to-deal-with questions. One footnote I remember off hand said that the children could grow up and be like the parents, or the parents could teach their children how to do these evil things that the Lord detests so much. It makes me think about racial prejudice as an example. When children are brought into the world, they don't know anything about hating people. They learn, not only from their parents, but all else that are in their environment. Even adults can be affected by their environment. If you are around a bunch of people who always talk about how much they hate a particular race, and are always pointing out the things that they feel are bad about them, you would (more likely than not) be affected by that. You would find yourself thinking that way, too. That is, until you get to know a person from that race, who introduce you to more people from that race. Once you get to understand that they are not the way you were taught they were, your hatred would diminish. It is because of this that God knows that generations of the same type of evil would continue to exist unless He saw fit to destroy them. Also, we really can't say that someone is innocent unless we truly know them. Just because you see a person who smiles all the time, that doesn't mean that they might not have some evil thoughts or desires. A person could present themselves in one way to you, but could seem like a totally different person to someone else. As troubling as some of these things may be in the Bible, we still have to accept and know that the Lord knows what is best. His way is truly different from our own. May the Lord continue to bless you on your journey through His Holy Word! In Jesus' Name, Amen! |
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| <Pax>
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Chelki
Thanks for recommending that book, bible history-old testament. I looked it up and it is on line, all seven volumes! I was amazed that it was written in 1876. It's pretty intresting. Here it is: http://philologos.org/__eb-bhot/default.htm |
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| <Karin>
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God had given these people ample time and opportunity to turn from their pagan ways. Since He was trying to insulate the Israelites from the influence of these groups, He asked them to do His work in removing them from the earth. If He had not done so, all the Hebrews would eventually have adopted their customs (as many did anyway), forsaken the true God, and then there would have been no "chosen people" from whom the Lord could come to earth in the form of humanity. Stern measures were taken, but the Israelites had to learn that disobedience to one's creator results in death.
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| <Pax>
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karin
welcome to the board. I think you are right. God is just. |
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Pax,
Thanks for the website! I have a modern edition in one complete book with small print! I compared it to the website version and it appears to be identical. I put it aside for awhile to read another book so I am only beginning Book 2. The other book I am reading is far more difficult to read and I can only read a small portion at a time! So I alternate readings. I think you will find that much of the better literature about the OT was written at the turn of the century! God bless you! Chelki Psalm 3:3 "But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head." |
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