You are free to have your opinion, but I would like to answer this point -

quote:

DO YOU REALISE YOUR POSITION IS A VALIDATION CERTIFICATE FOR ADHERENTS OF SEX CHANGE AND THE LIKE? I WILL LEAVE YOU TO IMAGINE WHO ELSE WILL FIND COMFORT UNDER THE SHELTER OF YOUR BRAND OF DOCTRINE.

& Steve suggested that when a thread gets long & changes from the origonal topic we start a new one.

The bible says a few scriptures about people on that road (& I will look for them later) & none of them are nice so I personally wouldn't make the same connections you do as far as sharing the scriptural principle from Esau who sold his birthright & Onan who practiced the withdrawl method to cut his dead brother's wife out of her inheratance; adding that to what I said & your view against any form of mutalation to our bodies (also a scriptural priciple from Lev 19:28) I still feel it's a stretch to go from cremation to tansvestitism as the same principle being broken.

The only scriptural principles that I thought you could extract from the story of Onan is that masturbation or rubbers are bad but because of the context of the story I think him not wanting his dead brother's wife to have a son by him thereby throwing her in the poorhouse was the sin & not the act of performing the withdrawl method. In today's culture in america ex wives get half of the ex husband's property regardless wether or not children are involved. In those days this was not the case. God cares for the widows & that is why I believe Onan died & so I don't agree that the main thought in the passage was anti withdrawl method, rubbers or masturbation but rather that God wants us to do good unto the people that we have interpersonal relationships with. Also I don't see any similarity between this case & that of Esau or mutilation of the body either but maybe manipulation of the body... Please if you have the time walk me through your connection between Esau & Onan.

Deut 22:5 "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

Lev 18:22 "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Lev 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Rom 1:24,26-27 "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."

Now I try to see the whole bible at the same time & so I have to have all the scriptures together form a complete picture & in the picture (doctrine) I see I have these scriptures telling me that there is a scriptural principle against being a transvestite. However I have the scriptures I mentioned before that give me a scriptural principle that cremation may be ok; I don't see how one issue has anything to do with the other except perhaps from the mutilating the body angle.

Now I would like to respond about you telling me what type of view I need to have of the scripture. Now God told me that I am not to judge the scripture by my life's experience but rather to judge my life's experience by what the scripture has to say. 1st of all I would like to state that I try my best not to tell people what to do, but rather suggest (& I suggest you do the same). As I said before you have the right to your opinion but please remember I have the right to mine. Btw, I personally praise God for Strong's Concordance because if it didn't exist or computer programs to allow me to find verses I couldn't do any preaching because I would be dedicating my life to making a book 1/4th as exhaustive & valuable as that book. However those 3 thoughts have nothing to do with my intended response:

Gal 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Num 22:38b "the word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak."

There are many other scriptures that I can give you as my thoughts, but I will leave it at this -

23 Ps 1 "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."

I believe with all my heart that God speaks to me just like He did to the patriarchs you mentioned regardless of my lack of righteousness (Isa:64:6) & He lead me to believe the way I do & I also believe that you believe the same thing (or similar) about yourself - what I am asking you is if you could consider that it's ok if we have different opinions or interpretations because the scripture says in 1 Pet 1:20-21 - "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

And the reason I believe that it is ok for 2 people to worship the same God & have different opinions is the scriptural principle found in Rom 14:1-8 but I want to focus on this thought in verse 4 "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." the other one is Jn 5:22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:" Rom 14:10b "for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." & have two more for good measure - Rom 2:1 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." & Jn 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.". If God did not appoint you to a judgship, it is teetering on the edge to take that authority upon yourself. If He did appoint you in a position of authority over me to be able to tell me what to do or believe then I humbly ask you to please pray to God that He tells me that & when He does I will apologize to you & agree with whatever holy words drip out of your righteous lips.

Look kind sir I don't want to look like a jerk or just ummm... contentious & I don't talk just to debate. It is my goal to obey my heavenly father & one of the 1st messages He gave me is that everyone doesn't have the whole pie (representing truth), but we all have a piece. & my mission is to get rid of my bad pie (untruths, lies & misconceptions) then go get more good pie from as many sources as possible & share as much of my pie as I can with as many people as I can all the while trying to be in-season & not caring if I am out of season (2 Tim 4:2). So as I go around hearing truth & lies (Rom 3:4) in people's words I have to do what the word says in Acts 17:11 & search the scriptures daily to see wether the things that are said are so & after or during the time I gather truth from other sources I share the truth I have already aquired. Hopefully I erased my bad parts of pie & only share good but that is up to God because I am unperfect & He is; so He can make me deliver His message well, or let me get it messed up. This reminds me of a scripture I been dealing with - 1 Cor 14:32 "And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets." Now there are 2 interpretations that I have for this verse & I believe that they are both correct - one (my favorite) that when a prophet gives a prophesy it is subject to the prophet's personality how it will be delivered; & also (probably the more important or spiritual one) that no prophesy from a current prophet will disagree with any prophesy of a previous prophet (especially taken as we can't contradict the bible). In any case my intention is not to experience a personality conflict disorder, but rather to peacefully share my views & the reasons (scriptures) why I have them. I believe that God gave me the gift of teaching & so my mission is not to seek an argument but to educate. I apologize if my personality gets in the way of me sharing what I believe to be God's message.

Also I believe in dispensations or covenants & in the current dispensation of Jesus relationship with us I believe that when he said "let the dead bury their dead." it superceeds all the painstaking care that the patriarchs put into their graves. I believe that Jesus doesn't want us to care about our dead bodies because he said in Jn 8:51 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." & Jn 10:10b "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." & also Paul said in 2 Cor 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." so when we die phisically, those scriptures tell me that we are still alive & probably not caring about our previous bodies. I seem to recall when Jesus mentioned a grave he was relating it to a bad preacher - so if Jesus gave graves a bad connotation I really don't see any reason to care about mine it can be any way He sees fit to have someone else do it because I most likely will make no provision for it but just to perhaps write in my will that I will that my blood be poured out onto the ground (Deut 12:16). As I said before I only see scriptures telling me try to make provision to care for my blood after I die, not my body entire.

The scripture says in 1 Pet 2:21 that we are to follow the steps of Jesus, well do you know how He prepared for his death? With a feast! Did you notice how He did not purchase a grave? That above all else tells me not to care about what happens to my body after I die, someone else will handle it & take care of it according to God's will, not mine.

One more passage before I go - 1 Cor 12 5-6 "there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."

I read a verse when I was a baby christian & I never found it again but when I read it the first time God used it to tell me that "Everybody believes what they believe for a reason"

I thought on the internet if you use all capitol letters that meant that you are screaming - you don't have to yell for people to hear you, just remember that when people hear you that doesn't mean that they have to agree.

Nobody has to answer to you or me, but everybody has to answer to God. Your relationship with Him is not the same as mine. When I look into the face of God, He tells me that I am on the right road, that's good enough for me.

SIR,

BLESS YOUR HEART. I DO NOT JUDGE YOU. MY USE OF BLOCK LETTERS IS A RESULT OF LACK OF ADEQUATE PROFICIENCY ON THE KEYBOARD. SORRY IF THAT BOTHERS YOU OR IS AGAINST YOUR CUSTOM AND I AM CERTAINLY NOT AWARE OF THIS INTERNET PROTOCOL YOU TALK ABOUT.

I WILL RATHER NOT STICK AROUND IF I HAPPEN TO BOTHER ANYONE. THAT'S NOT THE POINT OF FREE EXCHANGE.

BUT BEFORE I SIGN OUT LET ME DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT THE VERY ISSUE WHICH THE SUBJECT TOUCHES IS WHETHER A MAN HAS A RIGHT LIVING OR DEAD TO DO AS HE LIKES WITH HIS BODY.

DID ESSAU HAVE A RIGHT TO DESPISE HIS BIRTHRIGHT? DID ONAN HAVE A RIGHT TO INTERFERE WITH PROCREATION BECAUSE THE SEED WAS HIS? AMERICANISM FOR ALL ITS PRESUMPTIONS IS NOT THE END OF THE LAW NEITHER DOES SHE APPROACH IT. SHE MAY BE A CUSTODIAN OF A GRACE GIVEN BY GOD AND WHETHER SHE HAS BEEN FAITHFUL IN DOING THAT IS ANOTHER MATTER.

ALSO DO YOU WISH TO CONSIDER IF JESUS THE CREATOR OF ALL REALLY NEEDED TO GO TO HEAVEN WITH A BODY HE WOULDN'T BE NEEDING THERE?

BROTHER MY KEY WORD TO ACCESS THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD IS S-T-R-E-T=C=H! KNOWLEDGE IS RESERVED FOR US BUT ITS NOT FOR THE CASUAL SEEKER. AND MIND YOU THIS IS NOT REFERRING TO YOU PERSONALLY.

Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God
Prov 2:3-5 (KJV)

THIS TO ME IS S-T-R-E-T=C=H-I-N-G!

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Cor 2:9-10 (KJV)

EVEN THOUGH THESE THINGS ARE MADE AVAILABLE, MANY SHALL NOT TOUCH IT BECAUSE THEY LACK THE REQUIRED ERNESTNESS WHICH IS REQUIRED TO MAKE IT DELIVER ITS REALITIES. IT TAKES S-T-R-E-T=C=H-I-N-G.

AT THIS TIME I CAN ONLY WISH YOU HAPPY S-T-R-E-T=C=H-I-N-G!

BE BLESSED IN HIM.

I didn't think the bible addressed the issue of cremation untill I did this study just now.

Speaking of the concordance approach I looked up "burned" & found these scriptures:

Cremation used on enemies

Josh 7:25
2 Sam 23:6-7
2 Kin 23:16,20
Isa 24:6,33:12
Jer 49:2
Ez 24:10
Mt 13:41-42
Jn 15:6
Heb 6:8
Rev 18:8

Cremation punished

Amos 2:1

Cremation as martyrdom

1 Cor 13:3


Seeing as how the majority of the scriptures I just found about cremation are in the context of it happening to the enemies of God my presumption is that the friends of God probably dont have that happen to them too much.

Also I looked up "through the fire" to find a list of scriptures talking about cremation being used in child sacrifce being a practice involved in the worshiping of false Gods:

Lev 18:21
Deut 18:10
2 Kin 16:3,17:17,21:6,23:10
2 Chr 33:6
Jer 32:35
Ez 16:21,20:26,31,23:37

I preach those verses against abortion.

So again the majority of the scriptures with cremation in it are bad so it probably would be bad to get cremated - I was just saying that because we have different cultural considerations then the people who lived in bible days that God is free to have different relationships with us. As I said before we all need to pray to God & do what He tells us in regards to cremation.

Let me say you don't bother me. I did a study a while back & the word offend or offence in the king james means "to place a stumbling block in front of someone causing them to stray off the path of righteousness" so I do my best to never let anyone offend me.

quote:

THE VERY ISSUE WHICH THE SUBJECT TOUCHES IS WHETHER A MAN HAS A RIGHT LIVING OR DEAD TO DO AS HE LIKES WITH HIS BODY.

The short answer is no - Rom 14:7-8 "For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." 1 Cor 3:17 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

I always thought that Esau's birthright was intangiable; but then after thinking about it I guess it did involve his body as he was not able to become Jesus' grandfather as a result of selling it.

I still believe that every one of us has to get an individual answer from God about every issue because of passages like Ez 4:12 & Isa 20:2. If God were to tell us to have our body cremated then to not do it would be a sin; if He told us not to then to do it would be a sin. If He doesn't tell us anything about it then my guess is that it doesn't matter. But I don't find in scripture a command from God either way & thats why I will repeat: we all need to ask God His will & do what He says. If you can find a scripture that says that God said for His followers not to get cremated please share it. I understand how to "read between the lines" & therby get your point, but when it comes to scripture I prefer to just read the lines & let the scripture speak for itself. I always make a distinction when I preach & will let you know if what I am saying is a scripture, a rhema word, a man's saying, or a opinion/theory/supposition/guess/hypothesis & the only one of those that anyone should take as gospel truth is the scripture. If the scripture dosn't say something like "dont get cremated" for example, I have a problem with people who say it does.

I was under the impression that the body Jesus took to heaven was not the same one He had before he died. He was able to enter the locked room (I believe He could teleport or become intangiable - other explinations are that He climbed through the window or had someone let Him in w/o anyone knowing) - although He could eat & drink He could also disguise Himself most likely w/o makeup & fly. Because we can not fly, teleport or become intangiable & the scripture says "we shall be like him" in 1 Jn 3:2 my assumption is that when Jesus was ressurected it was in His spiritual body. This thought is backed up by 1 Cor 15:12-50 don't forget to focus on verse 35.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

If I remember correct the protestants took the book of Tobit (he was a hero for burying people) out of the bible because Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead." & that when He said it He was saying that seeking the kingdom of God was more important than burying people. If this passage does not tell you that Jesus wanted spiritually dead people to handle burials & that spiritually alive people shouldn't worry about it, then what is it saying in your view of scripture?

quote:

DID ESSAU HAVE A RIGHT TO DESPISE HIS BIRTHRIGHT?

This one is deep. By right I guess you mean that if you do something that is right with God, then you have a right to do it. I don't see too many rights in the bible in the sence that I use the word to mean I have a legal right to life liberty & the pursuit of happiness. I just remember a passage when David made a statute that the people who stay behind divide the spoil with the soldiers, but other than that I don't remember the scripture giving us any rights, what it does give us is promises.

I can not possibly be the grandfather of Jesus so I don't know what Esau went through; I never met my natural father so I don't even know if I have a birthright or what it is, so it means nothing to me. That is why I am so happy to be adopted into the family of God; He gave me a birthright (149 Ps 7-9;Rom 16:20;Eph 1:3;Rev 1:6) that I would never sell for any price. So for Esau his birthright had more to do with his future than anything he could see with his eyes. But the question was did he have a right to dispise it - well the similar question is do we have the right to sin? The obvious answer is "no" we have no legal right to disobey God but however God lets us disobey him because He wants willing participants in heaven & not robots. So in effect the freewill issue says that "God gave us a right to choose to disobey Him" because He does not force our choice. I guess it depends on your definition of "right" if it is "Right & wrong" then no. If it is the "right to freewill" then yes.

BROTHER ITS GETTING A BIT STRESSFUL HERE. YOU STILL MISS THE POINT.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Tim 2:15 (KJV)

BE BLESSED IN HIM.