I had a bible study this morning & we got into basically an argument over a passage in 1 Sam 21:13 when David went to the king of gath & David was afraid so he acted as if he was insane for the purpose of staying alive. My position was that lying is sin & so David sinned there because the flesh took over similar to the times that Abraham said to his wife "don't tell them that you are my wife because you are so beautiful they will kill me so say you are my sister". There is no mention of God spanking david (or abraham) & so the person I was arguing w/ said that David was justified in telling that lie. My position is that the scripture says "speak the truth in love" (He said not to your enemies & I responded the scripture makes no such distinction) & that God would have been able to save him if he spoke the truth but David displayed a lack of faith in God by lying to get himself out of trouble.

The gentleman also gave me 2 examples:

1) If a woman comes running down the street in distress past you & then some scary looking men come after her asking where she went (it looks like a victim trying to escape her abusers) it is your duty at that time to lie to allow her to escape.

2) If someone breaks into your house & you hide your kids in the basement & the villan asks you is there anyone else here? It is your duty to lie in that instance as well.

I said well remember Joshua & the battle of Ai? During the previous battle of Jericho they won & so they were confident that it would be no sweat so they went down to battle but without consulting God & they lost. So in every circumstance when we feel like it is the right time to lie we need to ask God what to do & do what He says; regardless even if it doesn't make sence. I forgot to give him the scripture in proverbs 14:12 & 16:25 that says "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" I did give him the one that says "trust in the lord with all your heart & lean not unto your own understanding"

In the case of the examples I stated that there is a differenfce between lying & witholding information - The pastor responded that omission is still lying (speak the truth the whole truth & nothing but the truth).

I am looking for input or maybe perhaps some scripture or scriptural principle that says that he is right - I don't know of any, but I did show him the one in Romans 3:7 "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" that says to me that if I lie even for a good reason I am still guilty of lying. I also showed him the one in Mt 12:36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

Also he said that in battle we have to lie as using feints is a ligitamate tactic; I responded that we are not to lie, even in battle & showed him the one in 2 Cor 10:4 that says "(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; )" wich I interpet to mean that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal or do not include lying. I forgot to give him the one in Rom 12:2 that says "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

I just feel that if circumstances arise that in my mind warrants a lie & if I in fact do lie to try & produce a desired outcome; that no matter what the reason I am not going to try & justify myself before God, I will just admit that I was weak & that I sinned because passing the buck off to my circumstances to try & get out of trouble with God is the same trick Adam tried to pull off & it didn't work for him so what in the world makes me think it will work for me?

I was reading in the next chapter or so of 1 Sam how Saul killed Ahimelech the preist of Nob along with 85 other priests & probably everyone else in their town because he helped David by giving him the showbread & Goliath's sword. At the time David lied to him by saying that he was on a mission for Saul when in actuality he was on the run from Saul. Perhaps if David told the truth he still would have have been fed & armed by the priest but also the priest would have known to run from Saul instead of going to meet him. Compare 1 Sam 21:2 "And David said unto Ahimelech the priest, The king hath commanded me a business, and hath said unto me, Let no man know any thing of the business whereabout I send thee, and what I have commanded thee: and I have appointed my servants to such and such a place." & 1 Sam 22:14-15 "Then Ahimelech answered the king, and said, And who is so faithful among all thy servants as David, which is the king’s son in law, and goeth at thy bidding, and is honourable in thine house? Did I then begin to inquire of God for him? Be it far from me: let not the king impute any thing unto his servant, nor to all the house of my father: for thy servant knew nothing of all this, less or more."

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,

Hello Slade,

Basically, I avoid corporate Bible studies with anyone but my wife, children, and possibly whose in whom I am "equally yoked" with doctrine wise. It has been my experience that group Bible studies bring out the flesh in people in ways that are, well, prideful. There is nothing more sorrowful for me than to see two or three Christians arguing about whether they are right or more right than their brother or sister in the Lord about their understanding on Bible interpretation.

Another "danger" perhaps of Bible study with those who are doctrinely opposed to us is that all too often, consensus seeps into the group. The post-modern church slowly is encouraging people to be not so firm about what the Bible says - to the extent that Bible studies can easily result in creating confusion, doubt, and change in people's understanding of God's Word. A "baby" Christian, while in great need of Bible study, can very easily be led astray by strong personalities in a Bible study.

Now that is not to say that we are not to correct a brother's misunderstanding about scripture when we know it. We should do so, in love, and move away, back off, and pray God would reveal truth to either myself or the brother, that we may know the truth. To do otherwise,it seems to me, to argue, debate, and try to outreason another person in such a way is prideful and not of the Lord.

That is not to say we should not have "holy boldness" either. We must stand for truth as we know it to be and defend the faith against those who would trash it. We do need a firm foundation and understanding on the Scriptures. We need to be open to error of understanding as well. I am not easily swayed by others regarding doctrine issues or anything other than literal interpretation of scripture. However, so many scriptures speak of the pride of life in us that is unpleasant to God and we need to take heed of that pride when we see it in us.

A nice summary of scriptures on pride:

http://www.crossroad.to/HisWord/verses/topics/pride.htm

By the way, I basically agree with your position on lieing. Situational ethics in our society is a tool of satan I believe.

God bless you Slade.

Nick P.

Thanks you reminded me of 2 Tim 2:14 "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." & Tit 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

My problem is that instead of focusing on those verses I am stuck on the one in 2 Tim 4:2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine." What I get out of that is that I am supposed to be instantaneous regardless weather I want to say anything or not & also regardless weather the person I am talking to wants to hear it or not - If God gives me a word it is a crime for me to keep my mouth shut because of another mission I got from God (2 Tim 4:2-5 was my 1st mission from God; Prov 23:23 was my 2nd mission & the following was my 3rd) Ez 3:17-21 "Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul." - That tells me that if God wants me to share a spriture with someone & I refuse I could very well not only let him go to hell but I could land myself in the same predicament.

I understand full well that God wants everything done decently & in order (1 Cor 14:40) & that my personal style can probably be improved & I have been making a concious effort to speak the truth in love (Eph 4:15) I guess we can all stand a little improvement, myself included. Thanks for reminding me that sometimes we gotta step back (Mk 6:11) I just don't think it is my job to fulfill the scripture in 1 Cor 5:5.

Someone gave me a passage that made me realize that I had forgotten one of the foundational bible stories... Rahab got into the "Hall of Faith" (Heb 11) for lying!

Now I am still unsure but I am just going to stick to the last verse in Rom 14 "whatsoever is not of faith is of sin" . So if God doesn't give me the faith to lie in a cirtain curcumstance I won't think I am justified if I do & would much rather not lie & just deal with whatever happens.