Are we as members of the body of Christ obligated to give offerings? Can you give me some scriptures to back up or answers this question?

Well I can't think of any passages off hand but the bible should say "tithes and offerings" a few times & because we should still give tithes I would assume that we should still give offerings wich go above & beyond the tithe.

A passage I think is in James says God loves a cheerful giver - I heard that the word translated cheerful there; we get our word hilarious from it so it's beyond just joy or cheer so we should be elated to be able to give.

Tanya (and now Slade) - in answering this question, try to focus on the word "Obligated."

As a true believer in Jesus Christ, What are we now "Obligated" to do? The question is not what SHOULD we do or what is honoring to do, but what are we obligated to do. If you answer this question in the general sense you will find your answer to the specific question on offerings.

Don't you hate it when someone answers a question with a question?

A background of "offerings" in the Scriptures indicate only those offerings relating to sin were mandatory – the sin and guilt offerings. The purpose of the offerings was to draw near to God. All other offerings – the burnt offering, the grain offering and the fellowship offering were voluntary, freewill offerings based upon one's devotion to God. The burnt offering was an expression of commitment and complete surrender to God. The grain offering was a recognition of God's goodness and provision. And the fellowship offering was an expression of thanksgiving and fellowship. God used this system to take care of the Levitical priesthood, as they received a portion of these offerings. (Leviticus Ch 1-7)

Though I haven't studied this recently, my recollection is that the "tithe" was put in place for the upkeep of the temple. Those who served at the temple were to receive a tithe (including the priesthood and the temple singers). The whole tithe was actually more than 10% – part of the tithe was for travel to Jerusalem for the feasts and festivals and another part to take care of the widows and orphans in the land. (Numbers 18:21, 24; Deuteronomy 12:17; 14:23-24 [the place where God set His Name was Jerusalem}; Deut 26:12)

The church's position is that "offerings" are over and above the tithe. From the Scripture, I believe it can be said that God wants all of our offerings to come from the heart. The message for us today is more one of "firstfruits" (to give of the first fruits of our labor) with thanksgiving and a willingness to bless the heart of God and others. (II Chron 31:5; Nehemiah 10:37)

Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Acts 24:17 "After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings.

God bless you,

Chelki

Chelki - This is excellent background. But what do you think a Christian is obligated (required) to do today?

This is a great topic!

Sorry, I guess it wasn't clear that I believe both the "tithe" and the "offerings" are voluntary based upon our hearts. The "rules" given by God were teachings of how to live a life that is upright and holy. Stress was upon the heart, rather than upon doing simply because it was expected.

The idea that offerings were to be made voluntarily with a willing heart was established with the building of the tabernacle (Exodus Ch 35)

NAU Exodus 35:1-35 ...Take from among you a contribution to the LORD; whoever is of a willing heart, ... Everyone whose heart stirred him and everyone whose spirit moved him came and brought the LORD'S contribution ... Then all whose hearts moved them, both men and women, came and brought ... All the women whose heart stirred ... The Israelites, all the men and women, whose heart moved them to bring ...

The Lord accepts our offerings as a soothing aroma, something that pleases Him when it is brought from the heart.

NAU Philippians 4:18 But I have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God.

I think the following scripture says it best –

Romans 13:8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

It can be argued what "fulfilled the law" means. The point Paul makes is our obligation is to love.

Blessings,

Chelki

Chelki - Very well said!

A post script to my last post –

Thank you Steve! I didn't expect you to read this post so quickly! After posting last, I realized Romans 13:8 deals more with our relationship to our fellowman.

If the question becomes what are we obligated to God for (kin to Romans 13:8) it is also to love Him with all our heart, soul, mind. He has taught us what is good (Micah 6:8) and He seeks those who have a heart for Him who will humble themselves to walk in that way.

Blessings,

Chelki

ob"¢li"¢gate \"a-ble-'gat\ vb -gat"¢ed; -gat"¢ing : to bind legally or morally

ob"¢li"¢ga"¢tion \'a-ble-"ga-shen\ n 1 : an act of obligating oneself to a course of action 2 : something (as a promise or a contract) that binds one to a course of action 3 : indebtedness; also : liability 4 : duty "” oblig"¢a"¢to"¢ry \e-"bli-ge-'tor-e\ adj

oblige \e-"blij\ vb obliged; oblig"¢ing [ME, fr. OF obliger, fr. L obligare, lit., to bind to, fr. ob- toward + ligare to bind] 1 : force, compel 2 : to bind by a favor; also : to do a favor for or do something as a favor
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

According to the definition it has to do with morality (wich in a general sence would mean the answer to the question is a definite yes), contracts (our contract with God has to do with us putting our faith in Jesus' blood to save us & Him saving us, but if God asks us for an offering in the form of a contract, {If you give me an offering of such & so then I (God) will do such & so in return} then if we accept the contract we are obligated to fulfill our end of the bargain), duty (we have many duties according to scripture - to execute justice & equality, to do the right thing because it is right - etc... Perhaps offerings applies here & perhaps not, indebtedness (God saved our immortal souls - dont you think we owe him a bit more than a few offerings?), legality (as Chelki pointed out in this dispensation we are not bound by God's law to make offerings), promises (if we make a promise to God to give an offering then we are indeed obligated) & force - God is very kind, operates with a soft hand perhaps the majority of the time, he gave us freewill & therefore I doubt he often forces us to do anything against it (but I have heard stories of how heathen were compelled by some unknown [to them] force to help a christan against their will).

Chelki -

I really appreciated your commentary on this subject. As I was rading it and thinking about it, these verse popped into my head.

Matthew 5:23-24 "This is how I want you to conduct yourself in these matters. If you enter your place of worship and, about to make an offering, you suddenly remember a grudge a friend has against you, abandon your offering, leave immediately, go to this friend and make things right. Then and only then, come back and work things out with God." (MSG)

It seems as though our relationship with each other also takes priority over our tithes and offerings to God. He demands that we have clean hands and a pure heart when we present our tithes and offerings to Him.

Any thoughts???

This is a great subject to explore!

Have a great day!
Howard

Hi Howard!

Would you believe the Lord brought this scripture to mind about a week ago, but I hadn't yet found it in the Scripture? This must be something I need to dwell on, so yes, I would love to engage in a discussion of this verse and how it can be meaningful to our lives. I would love to have your thoughts on it as well.

Would you mind if we start with the implications of what this would have meant under the sacrificial system and go from there?

Is there anything in particular about it you want to discuss? I agree whole-heartedly with your comments concerning the priority of our hearts.

Blessings,

Chelki

Howard,

I think you have presented a good insight. As I have studied I have found several incidences where the heart and life of man takes precedent over the "rule". One example is Pinchas taking swift judgment into his own hands and not receiving punishment himself. Another is David and his men eating the bread in the tabernacle when they were suffering from hunger. Another is the Lord being more interested in loyalty to Him than any sacrifice offered. He was not saying He hated something He instituted, but was saying He could no longer accept sacrifices that were from a heart that was neither pure or loyal to Him.

Your comment of the clean hands and pure heart reminds me that the priests could not enter into the Presence of God without first washing their hands and feet. They had to be ritually pure before they could place the sacrifice on the altar. They also wore special linen clothing to signify holiness. Interestingly, the priest did not refuse to offer a sacrifice, even when they knew the one bringing the sacrifice did not have a pure heart, because they were not to judge. Jesus in Matthew confirms the one bringing the offering was to exam his own situation and heart.

Do you have other thoughts?

Chelki

Hi Howard!

I have re-studied a portion of the sacrificial system. And WOW! I think there is so much of the sacrificial system we will never understand, though it was a major portion of God's religious plan.

I am reminded of a time when shopping, I saw a lady I had once attended church with. She and her pastor husband had just gotten back from a trip to Israel and she was so excited that one afternoon on their trip they were able to "see a sacrifice". Not wanting to quench her excitement, I listened, smiled and went on my way. What she saw was the butchering of an animal (not done by Jews) that had absolutely nothing to do with the sacrificial system God had put into place!

There are definite implications of the Messiah in the sacrificial system, but there is also much more. Within these instructions, are teachings and doctrines God taught the Israelites about their relationship to Him and to their fellow man. It helps me to now better understand how the early disciples used their Hebrew Scriptures not only to reveal their Jewish Messiah, but to also disciple them. Then once the sacrificial system was no longer in place, the teachings remained a part of their hearts and their religious experience.

Jesus saying, to lay your sacrifice at the altar and be reconciled to your brother first before you make your offering, fits right in with the nature and meaning of what God meant to convey.

Blessings,

Chelki

Chelki -

Hi! Sorry that it has taken so long to reply. I forgot my log on and password (sign of old age I guess) so I had to re-register.

Anyway, appreciated so much your comments.

I would suggest though that the sacrifical system has not been eliminated only changed. While Jesus Christ is the ultimate sacrifice for our salvation. We are still called to sacrifice ourselves to Him. Paul tells us that we must endure a continuous circumcision of the heart; a cutting away of our old selves in order to make room for the new. That is, we are to offer up our ways, our will, our lives to the Father freely and willingly.

Further in Romans 12 we are called to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice. Romans 12:1-2 "Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God"”this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is; his good, pleasing and perfect will." (NIV)

What do you think of this? Why are we called to do this? Is this the process of becoming more Christlike? If Jesus was the ultimate, once and for all sacrifice, then why are we called to continue to sacrifice ourselves?

It seems as though it comes back to the fact that God is first and foremost a relational God. He wants us to be in relationship with Him.

Tithes and offerings are really only acts of stewardship toward God as I see it. He already owns those things and can take them back whenever He chooses. Remember Job said that "the Lord giveth and the lord taketh away".

But, our giving of ourselves is completely different. God created us, but He also gave us free will. While He could force us into a relationship, He will not do that. It wouldn't work anyway. So, our act of willingly yeilding and giving ourselves to Him as Father, Lord and Savior of our lives is a much more meaningful and powerful offering and sacrifice. It is not simply a giving of something "we own" back to God, it is a commitment to allowing God to come real in our lives, making us accountable, providing correction as well as edification and encouragement.

I could go on and on.

Let me know you thoughts and again I truly apologize for being so late on a response.

Talk with you soon.
Howard

Hello, Howard, glad to see you are back.

I couldn't agree more! And so much of what applied in the sacrificial system still applies. Though rather than bringing dead sacrifices, we are to be living ones as partakers of the kingdom of life. I wonder if we take seriously the responsibility we have of coming before the Lord with circumcised hearts. Do we come to be near to such an awesome God without much thought of what He expects of us? He alone can save us, but do we place so much emphasis upon His work of salvation, that we neglect to offer Him our best? Many of the sacrifices of the sacrificial system were voluntary – to express thanksgiving and to have fellowship with Him (a type of free-will offering). I think how awesome it must have been to have the Lord utterly consume your sacrifice as a sign of acceptance.

God wants the sacrifice of our entire lives in whatever we do, to be done unto Him. Is it not like the High Priest who wore the inscription "Holy Unto the Lord"? He doesn't just want our placing a tithe in a church basket; he wants hands of mercy extended to those in need. And we don't have to look even beyond our own families to see someone who needs help. Shouldn't our lives be devoted to helping? – when you did it to the least of these my brethren, you did it unto Me.

Why are we called to do this? To be a witness of Him, to continue His work through the power of the Holy Spirit here on earth. Truly it is not about us, but Him. Your question about why we are to continue in sacrifice when He was the final sacrifice is a question that gives pause to think outside the box. He was indeed the final once and for all sin sacrifice -- the only sacrifice that could possibly remove sin. But there were other types of sacrifices and while He represented those sacrifices as well, my question would be, does "fulfillment" necessarily bring an end?

God allowed the Temple to stand 40 years after the death of our Messiah, all the while giving signs that something out of the ordinary had taken place 40 years prior. The Temple sacrifices continued until its destruction. It was a time of testing for the Jews and particularly the Jewish leaders who refused to see the clear signs that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.

Thank God we know that He has come, risen and will come again soon!

Blessings,

Chelki

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Chelki,

And you are so right on about our relationship with our Lord, which should be full of awe and praise. The scriptures you have quoted leads me to think He wants us to first think of Who He is and approach Him in a manner that is befitting such an awesome God. Really something to think about before we approach Him in worship or as our beneficent Father, who provides our needs.

Blessings,

Chelki

Howard, as I was studying today this verse seemed to be so appropo to our discussion -- Lev 10:3

Then Moses said to Aaron, "It is what the Lord spoke, saying,

"By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy, And before all the people I will be honored."

If our sacrifices are to be pleasing, we will treat the Lord as holy and in them He will be glorified.

Do you have any thoughts?

Blessings,

Chelki

Chelki -

I appreciated your contrast of bringing "dead" sacrifices versus "to be living ones". As I was pondering this it spoke to me that it really did not cost our forefathers nearly as much to sacrifice. What it cost them was material. What we are called to is a spiritual sacrifice. We are called to freely and willingly surrender all to Him. He gave us the ultimate example in Christ. The closest thing our Old Testament forefathers had was Abraham and Isaac. But, while that would have cost Abraham a tremendous amount, it still would not have cost him himself. But, I guess that takes us back to your earlier point of sacrifice as a means of obedience.

You pose a profound question regarding the seriousness of our responsibility and a complete understanding of the expectation from God of coming before Him with circumcised hearts. I would say that we really do not. Actually, this is a topic worth some real in-death study and probing. Are you game?

I totally share your heart in regards to reaching out to those in need. The group Casting Crowns recently performed a song called "If We Are The Body" that speaks to that issue very well. I would challenge us to consider that our call is beyond the confines of our family however. We need to go the "streets" and walk among the unchurched, unloved, unaccepted and touch them. We need to make random acts of kindness to strangers a part of our daily lives. We need to get active in the community not to Bible thump but to come along side of and do for those who need a touch of love and kindness. They don't need preached to, they need loved. Sorry, I could easily get on my soap-box concerning this.

But I also think that this speaks to the question of "Does fulfillment necessarily bring to an end?" I would say no, instead it brings a means to an end. It gives us an example to follow. The end as you say is manifested in Christ's glorious second coming and when all of the saints are gathered unto Him.

In regards to your last post and the comment, "If our sacrifices are to be pleasing, we will treat the Lord as holy and in them He will be glorified."

I pondered this and came up with the verses below. I especially was blessed by David's response to this in Psalm 51. There seems to be some common threads: truth (especially in our hearts), the condition of our hearts (especially toward God and ourselves); the sacrifice of praise; and a willingness to reach out to others. Our attitude toward God needs to be one of complete reverence and awe. (I'm not sure that we fully understand what that is.) Our hearts and minds are to be clean and pure because our sacrifices of praise, obedience, testing, ministering, etc. all come from the attitude of our heart before and toward God.


Hebrews 10:19-22 "Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, His body,and since we have a great priest over the house of God,let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water." (NIV)

James 4:7-8 "Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and He will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded." (NIV)

Psalm 145:17-21 "The LORD is righteous in all His ways and loving toward all He has made. The LORD is near to all who call on Him, to all who call on Him in truth. He fulfills the desires of those who fear Him; He hears their cry and saves them. The LORD watches over all who love Him, but all the wicked He will destroy. My mouth will speak in praise of the LORD. Let every creature praise His holy name for ever and ever." (NIV)

Psalms 51:6-17 "Surely You desire truth in the inner parts; You teach me wisdom in the inmost place. Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones You have crushed rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity. Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from Your presence or take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, and sinners will turn back to You. Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of Your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; You do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise." (NIV)

Can't wait to hear your thoughts on this. Have a great day!

Blessings,
Howard

Hi, all! I am new here...I have read several of the posts related to "Offerings" and rather then continuing to read, after the first 9 - 10, I felt led to share this:

"Every man should give as he has PURPOSED IN HIS HEART to give." That's the Lord's word on the matter of giving...

Consider the Window and her Mite...what did she purpose in her heart to do? Then ask yourself, "Why did Jesus use this as an illustration? Was it JUST to blast the religious leaders of their day for the gaudy public displays and self uplifting"? Certainly Jesus dealt with this issue more then once...but we should also consider the positive side, as well as the negative. We readily look at the religious leaders blackened hearts, and, if you are honest with yourself and the Lord, we have all hinted at or clearly said, "I sure am glad I don't do that." Fact is, in that statement we each have...our Lord was showing us what our hearts should look like...willing to give...even to the last...this woman adored the heavenly Father...she worshipped Him with her all...in her giving she gave her heart...Jesus said, ..."she has given more then them all." She only gave the Mites...much less grand...but, she gave her heart, and they had none to give because it was already given on themselves.

Give as you have purposed in your heart. What you give or do not give is between you and the Lord.

Judas was the keeper of the treasury...Jesus' ministry was receiving offerings...the disciples had all left their vocations, there is no reference to Jesus continuing in the carpentry field...there is clear reference to Judas keeping the money bag...and his attitude towards that bag, (Another great place for several jewels from the Lord)...and what of the foal of the ass Jesus rode into the city on?

" Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them. All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. And the disciples went, and did as Jesus commanded them..." Matthew 21: 2-6a

...the gift (offering if you will) of an Ass' foal. This unknown man WILLINGLING gave...why? Because he KNEW that the Lord had need of this colt.

As we worship the Lord...as we spend time before him...we will KNOW what He seeks of us...yes, it is all His...every bit of it...He has blessed us to allow us the blessing of returning to Him the goodness He has shown...and to be a real part of what His glorious plan for the world and mankind is...with ALL of our heart...not just our pocketbooks.

Pastor Dennis

Howard,

I have come to really love the OT. Though most teaching emphasizes the contrast between the old and the new, the more I study, the less contrast I see. Being the Bible student you are, I think this is something worthy to possibly take note of as you study. This is my opinion, and I am fully aware that I could be wrong. I think too often we interpret the NT, then impose that interpretation upon the OT in ways that blind us to the message.

Were those who were called to bring their sacrifices to the Lord upon the altar not to integrate the meaning of these sacrifices into their lives as well? Otherwise, wouldn't they have been meaningless? You have aptly quoted from David's psalms – "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise".

I love the books David penned as he was a "man after God's own heart", though he was not a perfect man. He seemed to be God's ideal when he recognized his sins, asked for forgiveness and served the Lord in prayer and praise. His spirit towards God was what God wanted in every Israelite. It was their hearts He wanted so much more than any animal sacrifice they could offer. They were only a sweet aroma to Him when they were brought just as God said to bring them and with a contrite heart as observed in Psalm 51. In verse 19, David says, "Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices, In burnt offering and whole burnt offering; Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar." Only if the sacrifices were "righteous" (offered in the right way) was God pleased with them (a lesson from Cain). Psalm 4:5 Offer the sacrifices of righteousness, And trust in the LORD.

Does this not apply to us in our worship and praise and the sacrifice of our lives? I most certainly agree the greatest example we have is that of Jesus! However, Jesus does not negate Moses or David – they, too, are examples. When David had the opportunity to kill Saul, he did not -- not because Saul was good, but David honored God in letting him live. I was told recently I didn't know the first thing about the Bible if I thought there is something to be learned from Moses! Hebrews does not teach that Jesus is in opposition to Moses, it teaches that Jesus is a superior prophet. Nor does it teach Jesus is in opposition to Aaron, but that Jesus is a superior high priest. Amen! The failure was never the message, but the hearts and minds of those for whom the message was meant. And the same holds true today.

My personal opinion on God asking Abraham to sacrifice Issac was to reveal to him the future Messiah. I believe he received the revelation and that it was passed down from his generation to the next. The Israelites were to understand that when they sacrificed a lamb on the altar for their sins, they were to lay their hands upon it to identify with it, knowing it was they who deserved to die. Eventually, they would come to understand there had to be a better sacrifice. And every other sacrifice (peace, thanksgiving, fellowship) was to be done in complete devotion to God, giving Him thanks and drawing near in order to have fellowship and a relationship with Him. If you read the dedication of the altar and tabernacle, they fell prostrate before the Lord when His glory appeared.

I love the selection of passages you chose to mention. The Lord has been speaking to me more and more about the importance of having praise in my heart and lips. He is so worthy! And I found your selection of James interesting too. As Jesus' brother, he had the same early religious training. When you compare the teachings in the OT to what James says, the two are very similar – speaking of social justice and a pure and undefiled religion.

Our Lord obviously wants us to be busy in His kingdom. We have been blessed to live in a free society, but sadly in our freedom we have also squeezed God out of our busy lives. Sometime in our busy days there has to be time made for a relationship with Him and a way to show the world we care because of Who He is.

Blessings,

Chelki
______

Pastor Dennis -

Welcome aboard! Glad to have you. I appreciated your commentary in this matter.

I like your emphasis on "Give as you have purposed in your heart." and relating it to our relationship to God. I agree that as we draw nearer to Him, that He will draw nearer to us. That will indeed cause us to have a greater sensitivity to what God calls us to in every aspect of our lives.

However, I also come to you asking for some clarification.

I am unclear about the reference to Judas and Jesus' ministry in regards to "offerings". I am not seeing the "tie" to this. Could you please explain it more for me so that I can get the understanding from it.

Thanks!
Howard

Chelki -

I totally agree with you in regards to the OT and the NT. It is not so much a contract as it is an evolving plan. I see the two complimenting the each other.

We do tend to be quick to harshly judge our brothers and sisters of the OT. We forget that they did not have the benefit Jesus Christ nor the Word. They truly did have to rely on works of righteousness to help maintain a proper spirit towards God.

Wow, what a powerful question you pose..."Were those who were called to bring their sacrifices to the Lord upon the altar not to integrate the meaning of these sacrifices into their lives as well? Otherwise, wouldn't they have been meaningless?" As I read that I kept thinking, isn't that also true for us today. Aren't we still called upon to make sacrifices for our beliefs from time to time. Doesn't it cost us something to take a hard stand for Jesus Christ when that isn't popular? Haven't we been made fun of, lost a friend, been falsely accused or talked about? Or better yet, shouldn't we expect it and if it isn't happening what does that say about our witness?

Is a sacrifice a sacrifice if it doesn't cost us anything?

Yes, I agree that there is much to learn from all of our OT brothers and sisters. I love the stories and everytime I read them God gives me new insight. The great thing is, if you take the time to learn about the culture of that time and the context of the passage, you find out that they really were struggling with many of the same issues that we do. Solomon was right, there really is nothing new under the sun.

Thank you for reminding me of the fact that Israelites had to lay their hands on the sacrifices so as to identify with them and realize that the body of an innocent one was their replacement. That is so powerful isn't it!?

Chelki, how do we do that today? So that we get that same understanding and conviction in our hearts and minds?

I really appreciate your responses. They make me think and challenge me to go deeper.

Blessings,
Howard

Howard,

Jesus' coming to earth as God incarnate man was the goal that would satisfy our need for a Savior and the Lord's requirement of justice, for He is and always will be a holy and just God. Let me pose another question – just something for you to contemplate. When God told the Israelites to "be holy, even as I am holy" and Peter quoted this later in his own writing, did it mean anything different than what it meant the first time it was introduced into Scripture?

Back to sacrifice –you asked if it is really a sacrifice if it does not cost you anything? I think that depends upon how you define the term sacrifice. A sacrifice is first and foremost an offering. I agree that any offering we make to the Lord should represent that we are making Him pre-imminent in our lives. Personally, I think it should represent the best of what we have to offer. I am not sure the sacrifice is necessarily to be something "sacrificial" on our part, though it certainly is not a bad idea. Wasn't it David who insisted upon paying for the land upon which he built an altar, saying he would not offer anything that cost him nothing. And it needs to be offered in the right way.

Chelki, how do we do that today? So that we get that same understanding and conviction in our hearts and minds?

I'm not sure what you are asking. We realize in the Messiah He is our sin sacrifice, the One Who took our place. I think meditation, keeping in focus that pride does not belong in our hearts. How could we think we could be saved any other way, but by His mercy and grace? I think those who had a heart for God, such as David, understood that as well.

Blessings,

Chelki

Howie,

Our sacrifices and offerings are meant to bring us into a closer relationship and walk with God. I think living our lives as daily sacrifices is to not go one day without acknowledging Him, living out lives with the idea that it is Him that makes the difference in everything we choose to do, and living our lives not to ourselves, but for the purpose He has called each of us. If that means we are to "give something up", then we do that too.

Blessings,

Chelki

Howard,

Greetings and love to you in the Name of Christ!

You asked the following of me:

quote:

I am unclear about the reference to Judas and Jesus' ministry in regards to "offerings". I am not seeing the "tie" to this. Could you please explain it more for me so that I can get the understanding from it.

My reference to the "money bag" in Jesus' earthly ministry was to present His attitude towards offerings (Himself being the greatest offering of them all.)...likewise, the attitude of Judas...is it not like the modern attitude of many who attend "church"?

The posts I've read related to heart felt questions such as "Should we," "Is it for today," which then progressed into a very theological exegesical debate on the sacrificial system; and, in my perception, the simple answer requires the question, "What have you purposed in your heart"?

"Let each one [give] as he has made up his own mind and purposed in his heart, not reluctantly or sorrowfully or under compulsion, for God loves (that is, He takes pleasure in, prizes above other things, and is unwilling to abandon or to do without)a cheerful (joyous, prompt-to-do-it) giver.... And God is able to make all grace(every favor and earthly blessing) come to you in abundance."
(2 Corinthians 9:7-8, Amp) - Does this scripture not answer it all?!

The Lord's very best to you today and everyday!

Pastor Dennis

Praise God for you Pastor Dennis. God does love a cheerful (or hilarious) giver (2 Cor 9:7, the same verse you quoted) & tithes & offerings are just an opprotunity for us to proove that we love him with our obedience. As we grow closer to the Lord we are transformed (Rom 12:2) as he gives us a new heart of flesh to replace the one of stone that we had (Ezek 11:19). So if we do as we purpose with our new heart of flesh then we can't go wrong as God gave us that new heart.

Howard said "They truly did have to rely on works of righteousness to help maintain a proper spirit towards God." in reference to the old testament saints, but I say that the bible teaches me this - just that the same way people are saved today is the same way they were saved in the old testament days; namely by Grace through Faith. The scripture says that Abraham got circumsized as a physical sign of the faith that he had already internalized (Rom 4:9-13, Gal 3:6, Jas 2:23). Nobody regardless of when they lived were saved by works of righteousness - for even the old testament says "the just shall live by his faith" (Hab 2:4). Now after re-reading the phrase I quoted of yours, perhaps you are not saying in any way that people were saved by works but I just wanted to be clear because I was confused & concerned by the wording. It was taught to me that we do good works as a result of the gratitude that we have towards God for saving us in the first place & as a byproduct of being born again & also being "God's workmanship" (Eph 2:10).

Dr. Catfish, I appreciate your mention of the 2 Corinthians verse. It speaks to God's heart concerning gifts to help our fellow brethren and even mirrors the giving for the Tabernacle.

I am sorry that you perceived my postings to be a theological debate – they were not intended to bring controversy to the subject, but to add commentary on the background of what sacrifices and offerings were originally considered to be and how they played a role in drawing one closer to the Lord. I see "offerings" to the Lord as being somewhat different from an "offering" of a monetary gift to help others (although I realize this may not expressly answer the original question).

My intent in posting is not to debate, and if you perceive that is how my posts appear, I would appreciate your comments.

Blessings,

Chelki

Slade,

"...And God is able to make all grace(every favor and earthly blessing) come to you in abundance..." 2 Cor 8a

I do not believe, nor do I believe the Word of God teaches, that anything is accomplished by the "righteous works of mankind." - "...None is righteous, no not one..."

My focus was entirely on man's heart...when it comes to "offerings," "tithes," etc., as they related to our heavenly Father, even our hearts are transformed by the saving grace of our Lord..."You are saved by grace, through faith, and that not of yourself least any man should boast." I pointed out that the religious leaders were "boasting" about their giving, and that Jesus pointed out that it was from the heart...the Pharasees and Sadducees, scribes and their like, gave from "self-righteousness" - Jesus condemned it.

James said, in a paraphrase..."Show me your works by your faith, and I will show you my faith by my works." Godly works are clearly a result, the crop if you will, from the seeds of faith and grace...both of which are given from the Lord.

For a clear understanding of how the Lord touched and saved people in OT times, read Hebrews...I think you will see that "obedience" is incorporated both in the New and the Old Testament...obedience is better then sacrifice...a man or woman choses to obey the Lord...and, according to His word, He blesses that obedience...they choose to believe God...just as we must chose today.

I do hope I've answered your question...God's unmerited grace is the only way anyone on planet earth has been, is being, or ever will be, saved...

Lord's very best to you!

Pastor Dennis

Howard,

I cannot speak to your intent as to the purpose of why you decided to present commentary on offerings and sacrifices from Old Testament times...I believe it is important to know that these things where a "shadow" of heavenly things and events...every single God ordained event and item in the Old testament, including every bit of the tabenacle, points to Jesus...nothing points to man, other then that we are the objects of our heavenly Creator's unmerited love...

2 Corinthians speaks to our hearts towards giving, and God's attitude towards such a heart...you have heard it said, "Give till it hurts." God did not say that...He would rather you give $10.00 with the heart He has described for us in 2 Cor., then $20.00 grudgingly

quote:

I am sorry that you perceived my postings to be a theological debate – they were not intended to bring controversy to the subject, but to add commentary on the background of what sacrifices and offerings were originally considered to be and how they played a role in drawing one closer to the Lord. I see "offerings" to the Lord as being somewhat different from an "offering" of a monetary gift to help others (although I realize this may not expressly answer the original question).

Tithing, offerings, are worship...they are not given for any other purpose, if rightly given, then to the Lord...yes, these offerings may be used for whatever purpose God has ordained them for, but if you are giving to anyone for any cause but to the Lord as worship, then your motive for giving is in error...

I would encourage you to share as much as possible. We learn by sharing and studying the Lord's word with each other...and I thank you for sharing with us.

Tanya's post simply asked:

quote:

Are we as members of the body of Christ obligated to give offerings? Can you give me some scriptures to back up or answers this question?

May the Lord continue to bless you, Howard,

Pastor Dennis

Howard,

Speaking of living sacrifices –

Paul's model of the body of Messiah was to come together to express from the Holy Spirit something that would help each other. What each one of us has to share also requires the nature of a clean vessel. It requires us to be sacrificial in that it requires a sacrifice of our time and effort to be that vessel. Being sacrificial is the basis of our fellowship with one another, becoming self-effacing, self-deferring and in humility elevating the other. In so doing do we not grow and mature in the Lord? Becoming a partaker of His divine nature!

God bless you,

Chelki

Good morning Slade -

I believe you must have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I made no mention nor made any tie to the process of salvation or who may receive it.

I truly apologize if you misread or misunderstood what I was saying above.

Howard

Pastor Dennis -

Thanks for you reply. I understand now what you were trying to communicate and wholeheartedly agree with you. God judges our heart (our motives) not only in the realm of giving but in everything we say and do. It seems as though it is the very basis from which God judges us.

That is why I love so much David's cry to God in Psalm 51 to "create in me a clean heart and restore a right spirit in me". What that demonstrates to me is that such a man as David, who had everything any person could possibly want had one thing really to sacrifice to God...the total complete yielding of his heart to Him. That ultimately is what God requires of each of us. Total and complete surrender and obedience to Him.

Thanks for your explanation.

By the way, I believe your last post was in response to Chelki's comments and not mine. Thanks!

Blessings,
Howard

Chelki -

I need to ponder your last post. Give a day or two to think and study this and I'll respond. It has me thinking for sure.

Thanks for challenging me on this.

Howard

Well hello Tanya! and how are you all? 1st. of all! but to: your 2 part questoin in this matter of Obligation:

Tanya Posted December 01, 2005 09:49 PM
Are we as members of the body of Christ obligated to give offerings? Can you give me some scriptures to back up or answers this question?

Luke 2:49b Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?
Posts: 976 | Registered: June 19, 2003


it is very important to us as a whole, but inorder to answer this issue, it is also as our Lord has said in giving:

your 1st. question: Are we as members of the body of Christ obligated to give offerings?

answer yes! in words and deeds/Col. 3:17

http://bible.cc/malachi/3-8.htm,

Lk. 6:38

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:4jU4ApjzHEsJ:www.sa...n&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8

Question 2. : Can you give me some scriptures to back up or answers this question?

answer: the two above related scriptures of the context of "Offerings" is an oblication to Give as unto the Lord of our salvation, but as he see you give as it is in your heart to that fellow person or etc.

Malchi 3:8, Lk. 6:38, Col. 3:17, and giving of alms to the poor is expedient as far as the Lord spirit would lead you. Romans 8:14

but as far as:

Luke 2:49b Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?

and Tanya! yes! in my personal experience I've found that Jesus had a lot of business to do, but as you had made this statement,

and as I will make this statement to you as I've done in the past on this board also, is that we as baptised belivers in Jesus Christ our Lord, must follow his steps,

so then my Sister in Christ! you have said well in your 2 questions, and that you had also choose as in your last statement with the question, that Jesus in answering his earthly parents in exactly of his duty: ....... Luke 2:49b Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?

I've also read of the following:

http://gdwmboard.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7806062801/m/13210472921

but do reply: and did you get your answer Sister Tanya? or have the Lord shown you already?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Walter, Jr.,

Oh I just had a couple thoughts -

1 Sam 15:22b-23a was brought up earlier - "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry" - this is one of my favorite passages as God used it to tell me "To do the right thing is better than to do the wrong thing & say your sorry".

All this study about the sacrificial system I just had to bust out these verses:

Heb 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

Heb 10:1-6 "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure."

2 Cor 3:5-11 "Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

Gal 3:23-25 "But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Jer 33:11 "bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD"

Heb 13:15 "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

50 Ps 8-15 "I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt offerings, to have been continually before me. I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me"

51 Ps 16-17 "For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise."

Oh yea I was wondering the same thing that walter was - did Tanya get her answer yet?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Slade,