I am looking for some guidance on this one.

Many unbeleivers point to this verse and say - see how cruel and unforgiving your God is.

When i point to the new covenent we often get into a debate about Jesus comment that he did not come to abolish the law.

Sometimes i get "wrapped around the axle" on the issue of the OT Law. I have a firm grasp on the fact that Jeus blood has already paid for all my trasgressions against the law. My difficulty is helping unbeleivers "over the hump" when they are hung-up on the nature of the punishments God required in the OT. The God in parts of Deuteronomy does not seem as loving and forgiving - what happened? Did HE change? The Bible says he never changes...

How do YOU answer people who respond to our call to use the Bible as our guide when they bring-up versus like this one?

sorry for the rambling stream of consiousness

Brad,

It is my opinion that we cannot really “know” God, except that we also “know” the God revealed in the “Old Testament”. He has not changed, and therefore He is the same God today. In the teachings of Deuteronomy, He is showing His character – that He is a holy God, who wanted His People to characterize that same holiness. There are a few times when He called for a death penalty, but He used it as a deterrent to keep the people from sin and degradation and to preserve them as a holy nation for the coming of the Messiah. It was implemented when there was blatant defiance and rebellion, not simply for having broken a rule. I am of the opinion that it was seldom used and only when necessary.

In Deuteronomy 22:20, the death penalty was not just for not being a virgin, but for fraud in the marriage contract. Not only a deterrent to sexual immorality, this passage acts as a protection for the woman so she could be given the opportunity to prove she had not committed fraud, in the event her husband wants to use this as an excuse to put her away.

God was just as loving, merciful and forgiving with the Israelites as He is with us today – Exodus 34:6. In fact, He said, "If you will obey, then I will bless you". These are the same blessings that Christians claim for themselves. But He does not tolerate blatant rebellion among His People. He was always committed to bring about the salvation of man. His plan to bring Jesus as our salvation was from the beginning.

We, too, are expected to reveal the character of our Lord today to the rest of the world. We are also to “be holy, as He is holy”. What we fail to see today is that He really is the same – the same loving God, but one Who asks us to walk humbly before Him in all His ways.

NAU Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require {ask}of you but to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God?

Brad, we live in the end of days. Not to put fear in hearts today, but many tend to believe that God is only a God of love and no longer a God of justice. One day He will return to take His bride. In His return He will also bring His wrath and judgment against those who do not serve Him in reverence and in awe.

Blessings,

Chelki

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Chelki

Thank you for your response !

Brad -

This is a heavy topic for many. I can remember earnestly struggling over this very issue myself.

Paul deals with this very subject at length in Romans chapters 2-6. I encourage you to read these passages, meditate and study (commentaries are a good resource). Pray and ask God to give you revelation and insight into these passages as you read them.

But bottom line for me is this. We are under a new covenant through the sacrificial and redeeming work of Jesus Christ. Jesus died for us that we might live and be called sons of God. When God looks at us, He looks at us through the blood of Christ which covers each believer once and for all. We are justified and redeemed by our faith in Jesus Christ, but this does not give us license to act however we choose. No, instead we are actually called to be slaves of righteousness.

All sin results in the same result, separation in fellowship with God. This is because God cannot be in the presence of sin. I can think of nothing worse than to be separated from God. It is our confession and repentance (or a true turning and running away from the sin) that reunites us with with our loving Father in fellowship. God extends to us grace if we truly repent.

You could debate and discuss this for hours. But, I would invite you to consider keeping the explanation simple. Especially for unbelievers who really have not had an opportunity to know the Word. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you and to give you just the right words to say.

I appreciate your heart Brad. Keeping searching and asking the hard questions. You will see your faith grow by leeps and bounds. I am truly excited for you my brother.

Matthew 7:7-8

Ask, Seek, Knock

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

Howard

consider this: with the certain exceptions of Esther and Ruth, I know of no other book of the bible which omits one specific order, command, or suggestion - "FEAR YHVH"!! the only other command that comes close in the number of times it's repeated is "obey my commandments, statutes and laws". Even Yashua stated that if you love Him, you will follow His commandments and since he is ONE with YHVH, YHVH's commandments are NOT abolished.
Kat
p.s. Are you a parent by any chance? If so, do you have house rules that you set up for your kids - things like "do not throw balls in the house" or "don't get too close to the fire place" or other rules?? That's basically what Torah is. Here is this really BIG family, coming out of slavery where the only laws were against them, and coming into a pagan land where there were no set laws. The Father of them all then set down His house rules. These rules are still in effect with some modifications (civil laws of the land stand before laws concerning the same things, death penalty has been done away with for spiritual "crimes") but when the rules are broken, the Father of the house still gets angry, there are still punishments even though the kids are older now and one would THINK they'd have learned some restraint. He has modified some of the punishments, but not all and not for all "crimes". Many of those punishments won't be meted out until judgement, others are punished right away (usually so that the kids can LEARN from them) and some of the kids aren't as bright as some of the others....so they get in more trouble, more often. Yashua paid the ultimate price for us BUT there are still lessons to be learned and sometimes we just really tick off our Dad. Torah is the guideline by which we will be judged, so it's best to learn and live it, but that's up to the individual. As far as YHVH not seeming to be as loving or forgiving.....He planned all the time for our salvation - how much more loving can you get? But He was working with HUMAN BEINGS....stiff necked at BEST....He had to prove to them that He was what He said He was. I am afraid that too many "preachers" today are preaching "name it and claim it" and convincing people that ALL YHVH wants is for them to ask for everything they want so that He can provide it for them. YHVH is not and never was a sugar daddy - He is a stern, loving, forgiving, and diciplining Father who has abundant mercy on us (or we'd have been wiped out LONG ago), forgiving us over and over but His forgiving something does not mean that there is no punisment, you WILL reap what you sow. If you fail to understand that, go back to the old testement and read it again (the book of numbers in particular tells how many Israelites lost their lives because of not obeying Him.) He doesn't kill us on the spot for our misbehaviors but there will be an accounting - that's what judgement IS, and there will be one judgement day for EVERYONE who ever lived. That's not meant to scare anyone, but if you don't understand that, you MAY not live your life the way you really mean to.
ok...rant over. kat

This message has been edited. Last edited by: <Kat>,

In the "Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Kill" thread I stated that I heard that when God says kill someone it is because he, like a surgeon has to remove a cancer from us or it will continue to spread.

Kat - it seems that we have a similar line of thought concerning the new covenant although we may not voice it the same but my question to you is where did you get your information about the modifications to the law you mentioned (civil laws of the land stand before laws concerning the same things, death penalty has been done away with for spiritual "crimes") Was that a scripture that gave you that idea or did you get it from a human pastor?

Also if you pay attention Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.", well Jesus did fulfill the law & that's how he was able to do the "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" Col 2:14

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